I think you were reading some old blogs. Perhaps, you read Part 3 of the Benjamin Marauder blog:

http://airgun-academy.pyramydair.com/blog/2012/04/benjamin-marauder-25-caliber-part-3/

Tom was in the hospital in 2010 when parts 1 & 2 were written. Our friend Mac drove to Texas to test a bunch of guns til Tom could get out of the hospital & get back to work again. Part 3 of the Marauder report never happened until a few weeks ago. And when you clicked back to read parts 1 & 2, you read about the hospital updates.

Tom is healthy & in full swing these days. I hope he never has to see the inside of a hospital again.

Edith

Thank you for the pellet tips. I have tried the Eunjin 1.6gr .177….talk about BC..they measure near 8mm long near 2 times the 4.5mm diameter. Took a few shots at a very heavy wall dog food can and a green DF 2×4…very impressive. I will try it out at 20~30 yards maximum to avoid a near rainbow trajectory. Air Guns will be a Hatsan Webley Tomahawk and a Gamo Big Cat 1200.
Thanks again,
Pete

My last surgery was last April — of 2011. But thanks for thinking of me.

B.B.

Congratulations on your good find! A Beeman Tempest is a great spring air pistol and the more you shoot it the more used to it you will become. Finding one at a yard sale is a major coup!

B.B.

Shot it a little bit ago. After adjusting the sights and getting used to a sproinger pistol with a heavy trigger, I am starting to get groups approaching 1 inch at 10 meters! I think this one is going to be a keeper!

Conditions: bright sun, 88 deg., wind SE with gusts up to 35mph.

Same as usual: 6″ Shoot-N-C targets, 25yd. 30 shots, max. possible score 300.

Crosman Storm XT/ Tasco 3-9×40mm scope. Cabela’s 10.5 gr. domed pellets. 279/300.

Bronco Target Gun. Adjustable peep sights. Beeman pointed pellets, abt. 7.5 grain.
I couldn’t get into the target with these. Way too light for the wind.
Substituted the pellets used in the XT. Adjusted sight for increased pellet drop and wind. 259/300.

Neither score outstanding. But I found that even a low-powered springer like the Bronco does a lot better in the wind with heavier pellets.

I had weighted my target box and had no problem with the wind moving it. It was kind of fun to have to deal with the wind, it puts a real-life factor into the shooting.

Les

Yes, the “molecular size” of a CO2 molecule is larger than the molecular size of a O2 or a N2 molecule. But the kinetic theory of gases predicts that the RMS velocity of gas molecules is a function of temperature and molecular weight. So the main reason is that the CO2 has a lower RMS at a given temperature is that the CO2 molecule weighs more than an O2 or N2 molecule.

Regards,
Herb

For work I have been sent down to training in Houston for the next 44 days. Missing my shooting I went out an purchase a crosman 1377 (I have 2 of these back home), pellet trap an 1000 pellets. I have a good 25 foot range in the hotel room. My stress is no where to be seen.

By the way when I retire or in my next life I’d like to live next door to B.B. an help him test airguns. Not sure who this Mac guy is I’m jealous of him for sure.

Thanks again for the advice on the Bronco and a superb blog.

-Jan

Doug,

What you want is someplace where the Marauder is discussed, because no other PCP adjusts the way it does.

Let me suggest the Crosman Airgun Forum:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/275684/

B.B.

Hello, Tom

I’ve been reading some of your stuff on airguns. I’m wondering if you
can refer me to a text or url that discusses the theory and relationship
of air gun functioning and tuning. I have two Marauders, .177 & .25.

Thank you, Doug

That wasn’t me. Mac is having surgery this Friday. Anyone else?

B.B.

Well, that’s hardly a Marauder trajectory they have set up. That’s a centerfire scope, I think. I need to learn more about it.

B.B.

The formula is as follows

Pellet weight in grains times velocity squared and the sum is divided by 450240.

B.B.

Remember the IZH-64M 1mm, 3mm, and 6mm 10m six shot group sizes I mentioned yesterday? Here are the associated FPE taken from that site:

RWS Hyper Velocity 5.2gr, 527 FPS, 4 FPE (3.21 FPE) 6mm group
RWS Diabolo Basic 7.0gr, 480 FPS, 3 FPE (3.58 FPE) 3mm group
JSB Diabolo Exact 8.4gr, 455 FPS, 4FPE (3.86 FPE) 1mm group

The above numbers are from the “other site”. The numbers in parentheses I generated using BB’s formula taken from the earlier link in this posting. I don’t know how the “other site” calculated their numbers but they sure don’t match the PA Energy Calculator numbers even if you tried to round off.

-Chuck

Les

Argh, am just returned from a trip and a severe illness. I have lost the desire to shoot which is close to life itself. Most disturbing. But I hope to be bouncing back soon. Meanwhile, I can highly recommend The Avengers as a most entertaining film. As the cartoon song said:

“When Captain America throws his mighty shieeeeeeld!
All THOSE who CHOSE to opPOSE his shield must FLEE!”

Matt61

Edith

Once again, Thank you for the time Mr. Pelletier.

It seems to me that more and more scopes are adding things to reticles to be used in offsetting for distance, but which require one to know the ballistic table to correlate the proper marker to use. Bit of a change from the /old/ Leatherwood Sporter where one first preset a dial for the load, and only needed to know the size of the target — one adjusted the zoom setting until the target size matched a reticle ruler/grid (marked in inches and I think metric). The act of zooming cammed the rear of the scope upwards to adjust for the distance (the preset was to position the snail-shell spiral cam to the proper rate-of-change for the load). {The newer Leatherwood scopes went to mil-dots too, rather than actual rulers}.

http://www.pyramydair.com/article/What_is_Muzzle_Energy_August_2003/5

/Dave

From what I’ve seen, spring guns tend to be fairly consistent in energy until the pellet weight gets either extremely light (I’ve not tried any of those plastic or alloy pellets) or extremely heavy.

Pyramyd Air sells that scope:

http://www.pyramydair.com/s/a/CenterPoint_4_5_14×44AO_Rifle_Scope_Illuminated_Game_TAG_Reticle_1_4_MOA_1_Tube/3114

Edith

it expands slower because its molecule is larger than the atoms contained in compressed air.

To be precise: CO2 consistent molecule size is larger than the average molecule size of plain air (after all — CO2 is a small component of air, along with O2, H2O, lots of nitrogen, traces of argon, radon, helium, neon, xenon, maybe some vapors of H2SO4. some O3…)

Second, I want those of you with chronographs to do your own tests and report the findings.

Well… My old spreadsheet gets called up again… I really need to route a tornado through my parent’s basement, in order to clean out a 10m range, and then re-chronograph with actual averages. Most all of this spreadsheet consists of single shot samples, so there is no indication of variance within a pellet brand/model.

Once again, columns are pellet maker, pellet model, weight, chronograph, computed energy (The NRA 1000 might be 5 shot averages — it was quiet enough in the apartment)

Gamo NRA 1000 Special .177
RWS Hobby 6.9 926.7 13.16
RWS Super-H-Point 7.4 926.1 14.09
RWS Superdome 7.7 852.2 12.42
RWS SuperPoint 7.7 894.2 13.67
RWS Meisterkugeln Rifle 8.3 850.6 13.33
Predator Polytip 9.2 723.4 10.69
Benjamin Discovery (RN-HP) 10.5 709.5 11.74
Eun Jin Domed 15.6 528.0 9.66

Spring-piston, .177 caliber; approximately a 13+ ft-lb gun using pellets in the 7-8gr range; dropping to 11ft-lb at the 9+gr range.

Benjamin Marauder .177 factory settings ~2450PSI
Crosman Premier Wadcutter 8.0 952.4 16.11
RWS Meisterkugeln Rifle 8.2 940.8 16.11
Predator Poly-Tip 9.3 907.0 16.91
Beeman Kodiak Copper 10.2 877.6 17.42
Benjamin Discovery 10.5 872.4 17.74
H&N Barracuda Match 10.7 876.2 18.15
Beeman Silver Arrow 11.6 831.7 17.77
Eun Jin Domed 15.9 743.2 19.49

PCP, .177 caliber; A fairly distinct climb from 8gr @ 16ft-lb to 16gr @ 19ft-lb

RWS Diana M54 .22 (single shot each)
RWS Meisterkugeln 14.0 810.8 20.43
RWS SuperPoint Extra 14.5 778.7 19.52
RWS Super-H-Point 14.5 787.9 19.99
Beeman Silver Sting 15.8 751.1 19.79
Predator Poly-Tip 17.2 725.8 20.12
Beeman Silver Arrow 17.6 704.3 19.38
AirArms Field Plus 18.2 688.1 19.13
JSB Exact Jumbo Heavy 18.2 701.7 19.90
H&N Crow Magnum 18.2 669.9 18.13
H&N Baracuda Match 21.1 618.7 17.93
Gamo TS-22 22.0 561.1 15.38
Eun Jin Round Nose 28.5 465.9 13.74

Spring-piston, .22 caliber: Essentially a 19.5 ft-lb gun with pellets ranging 14-18gr; rapidly dropping for pellets over 18gr

Condor High Power Tank dial 8-0 .22
RWS Super-H-Point 14.5 1143.3 42.08
JSB Exact Jumbo Heavy 18.2 1058.0 45.23
AirArms Field Plus 18.2 1068.0 46.09
H&N Crow Magnum 18.2 1076.0 46.78
H&N Baracuda Match 21.1 1010.0 47.79
Gamo TS-22 22.0 977.1 46.63
Eun Jin Round Nose 28.5 949.7 57.07
Eun Jin Pointed 32.4 939.5 63.50

Condor Micro-Meter Tank dial 8-0 .22
Beeman H&N Match 13.0 727.4 15.22
RWS Meisterkugeln 14.0 708.2 15.59
RWS SuperPoint 14.5 686.8 15.19
RWS Super-H-Point 14.5 702.2 15.87
Beeman Ramjet 16.0 680.0 16.43
Beeman Silver Ace 16.2 672.6 16.27
H&N Crow Magnum 18.2 635.6 16.33
H&N Barracuda Match 21.1 618.7 17.93
Eun Jin Domed 28.5 554.6 19.46
Eun Jin Pointed 32.4 511.0 18.78

PCP, .22 caliber, two different valves but same striker preload. High power shows significant climb between 14gr @ 42ft-lb to 32gr @ 63ft-lb; restricted valve shows narrower climb through 13gr @ 15ft-lb to 32gr @ 19ft-lb

Mike

There’s so many variables that any question B.B. presents to us is an immensely complicated issue.

Ruger AirHawk .17 Magnum
Pellet Wt Ft-Lbs E: Vel (fps)

Crsmn SSP: 3.6 6.0 868
Raptor 5.2 13.4 1079
Gamo Match 7.7 12.3 848
Bmn CrowMag 8.6 12.7 814
JSB Exact 8.7 13.7 842
H&N ‘Cuda 10.2 13.0 758
Ben Discvry 10.5 12.7 738

Remington Summit .17 Magnum
Crsmn SSP: 3.6 5.8 848
Raptor 5.2 13.5 1071
Gamo Match 7.7 13.8 898
Bmn CrowMag 8.6 13.3 835
JSB Exact 8.7 13.1 831
H&N ‘Cuda 10.2 13.8 781
Ben Discvry 10.5 13.0 750

Not much correlation to see: SKIRT FIT likely plays a large part in velocity, thus energy?? —Barr

Thanks for sharing your data.

B.B.

I have only looked at the nerf pellets in .177 in three different rifles….two springers and a PCP. They produced less power (even though the velocity was higher) than the rifles favored pellets.

twotalon

Very interesting blog today and pretty much mirrors what I have observed. A few examples:

.22 cal HW77
14.3gr Crosman Premier 652 fps 13.5 ft lbs
21.2gr Beeman Kodiak 513 fps 12.4 ft lbs
26.2gr Skenco Big Boy 456 fps 12.1 ft lbs

IZH 46M
5.0gr GTO Lead Free 500 fps 3.1 ft lbs
7.9gr Crosman Premier 440 fps 3.4 ft lbs
13.0 gr JSB Exact Monster 350 fps 3.6 ft lbs
16.1gr Eun Jin 320 fps 3.7 ft lbs

Benjamin Katana
12.0gr RWS Hobby 900 fps 21.6 ft lbs
14.3gr Crosman Premier 854 fps 23.4 ft lbs
21.0gr Beeman Kodiak 720 fps 24.2 ft lbs

Paul in Liberty County

When it comes to springers, you have to test each pellet to see how it is going to work.
I have seen lighter pellets shooting slower than heavier pellets. No question about a difference in power there.
I have seen two different pellets in the light range shoot completely opposite in velocity (one expectedly high but the other unexpectedly low), and the one that was best had either more or less energy than a heavier pellet….depending on exactly which heavier pellet that it was compared too.

Then there is the other thing…
Energy at the muzzle compared to energy downrange. If you choose the right pellets to compare, the one that has the most energy at the muzzle will have less energy down range.

twotalon

I prefer the spring piston power plant due to the fact that it doesn’t need any other auxiliary devices to function, such as high pressure pumps, or tanks or CO2. The spring piston gun has a magical quality that can not be explained. Oh yes, PCPs are great, I love my Marauder, my Discovery and my CZ 200S. Despite their accuracy, they have a clinical quality to them that puts me off a little bit. Also they are not self-contained. Without a filling device they are useless. Meanwhile, BB is using a spring piston powered rifle that has not been manufactured in several decades for one of the guns in this test. That says a lot, does it not?

I must admit, I am not all that interested in power. Nearly all of my shooting is at targets, not live animals. However, I do need to shoot the odd squirrel who can’t take a hint. My fastest kill was from an HW57 in .22 cal. A spring powered powerplant that shoots .22 cal pellets rather slowly by most accounts. Poor thing was dead before it hit the ground. I have shot other squirrels with higher powered guns that one would guess would be critical injuries, only to make me follow them and put them out of their misery. It hurt me more than it hurt them.

This is to say, power isn’t everything, or anything. Accuracy, and shot placement is more meaningful. Enjoyability to shoot is most meaningful of all.

On the subject of barrel droop, my prized Air Arms TX200 fixed barrel underlever could not hit the paper at 25 yards when I first received it. It was shooting about 18 inches low. I was also using the wrong pellets for awhile, so the two problems (barrel droop, wrong pellets) led to some overpowering buyers remorse. I finally wised up and figured out how to shim the scope mounts. Then I found out it really likes CPLs. Since then I don’t have a single complaint about this rifle. I have effortlessly taken out bottle caps at 30 yards, shot the eraser off a pencil at 15 yards, and shot 1 hole groups at 10 yards.

I eventually invested in a set of the Beeman/Sportsmatch adjustable scope mounts. They are a bit pricey, and you must remove the scope from the mounts and the mounts from the rifle to make adjustments, but they are solid mounts that fix the problem. I would recommend them.

Great story. Thank you for passing it along.

It was just sumpin’ I wus doin’.

No plan. It wasn’t the full-up accuracy test — just foolin’ around.

B.B.

Yes. If Pyramyd Air carries that scope I will test it for you.

Edith?

B.B.

Mike

Where the IZH looks kinda like a space gun the FAS looks and feels like a race car in your hand.

J-F

In the meantime, perhaps other readers could try this. If you have a springer that doesn’t “like” certain ammo, try shooting a 2nd group, with the skirts seated in about 0.02 or so. Yes, there will be other factors, but if this makes a difference for a significant number of combinations, then it’ll be something that we should always check.

Right now I am counting the stock for my project to reduce weight as much as possible. And it seems that if I’m correct in my calculations, 7075 alloy square pipes welded together (think of AI AW) with wooden grips will weigh at least 1.5 times less than all-wooden stock.

So there are 2 questions:
Did anybody make such stuff?
Does anybody know how will seams behave under loads specific to springer? (I can choose between arc, plasma torch welding, both in argon atmosphere and, maybe, laser).

Receiver saga continiues, one shop failed to make it – their equipment vibrates too much on long pieces so they cannot hold within tolerances. Swithed order to another and now I keep my fingers crossed and pray to Mighty Fanuc, Mitsubishi, Makino and st. Nakamura the Cutter.

duskwight

All of my pellets had a snug fit, and I notice now that I tend to push them down a bit with my finger. While that was to make sure the pellet didn’t just fall out, it might also be helping to seat them just past that very small bevel you noted. With a looser pellet skirt, one of those tools might be needed to get it in far enough.

Continuing to practice with the scope at 10m, the magnification is really helping me to see and take out more and more jitter in my hold and smooth the trigger. I figure a week or so of this before I return to the peep sight. As far as I can tell, every error here is still mine, and not the Bronco. It’s interesting that, at this point, my scoped 1377 pistol (highly modified) is still more accurate than the Bronco. However, I do seem to be able to hold the 1377 with less jitter, and it’s upgraded trigger is even better than the Bronco’s. I hope to match it after more practice.

OTOH, for my pistol competition the P17 just won’t do it. A few group well, then the aim point changes on me. Stripped, cleaned and lubed, no issues were seen but it still changes. I suspect a valve issue but don’t have time to pursue that as it looks okay under magnification. So, it’s either buying a Williams rear sight for my 1377 (no scopes in this pistol competition), or looking for another air pistol (IZH 46m?). There are a few others cheaper than the IZH 46m, but they all seem to have some issues. The only one I’ve found for the IZH is that it is front heavy, so harder to use for many shots while off hand.

I used the Diana RWS 34 as the worst case when I developed the droop-compensating mount with Leapers. I therefore agree with Fred that all 34s probably do droop.

But the corrective bases (not rings, buy what they attach to) that will fit your 34 have changed in recent years, as Diana has seen fit to change the base on most of their air rifles. So talk to the dealer before you buy droop compensation mounts. If you are buying from Pyramyd Air they have a lot of experience with this model and problem.

B.B.

Hope all is well with you and yours. I read about it by the inventor:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/79537/thread/1336862942/A+drop-in+Multi-Stroke+conversion+for+the+IZH-46M-

kevin

with the exception of the Diana / RWS 350, pretty much every Diana has barrel droop. Consider ordering this compensating mount when you order your scope and mounts:

http://www.pyramydair.com/s/a/UTG_Scope_Mount_Base_Fits_RWS_Diana_34_36_38_45_with_TO5_Trigger_Compensates_for_Droop_Stops_Scope_Shift/2298

There are others on the PA website but this is pretty inexpensive and works great. Plus, you can switch over to Weaver type mounts from Dovetails. I own one which I use on my RWS 52 and am very happy with it.

Fred DPRoNJ

that’s very interesting – where did you hear about that? Is it a factory kit or an aftermarket one?

Fred DPRoNJ

I can’t give a preference either, having only my 46m, but I can say I like it and I don’t regret having bought it!

/Dave

Fred DPRoNJ

All International style competition PCP tanks have a manufacturing date stamp on them, and may not be used in competition after 10 years since the stamp. In principle, this cannot be extended. And it is regardless of when the cylinder was first placed in service. It’s one reason why “new old stock” on a cylinder may not be a bargain.

Of course, many competitions don’t check the date during equipment control, but the big ones do.

Mike

I kind of doubt that centerless grinding would do anything more than ensure that the barrel’s od would be perfectly round. The bore could still be crooked or drilled at an angle through the bar stock. They would need to be put between centers on a lathe and then ground. You could then centerless grind them but it would be kind of redundant unless you just wanted a different finish, perfect taper or cylinder…

/Dave

I’m not a pistol guy but have shot marshall’s IZH 46M. Very accurate gun with a great trigger. He has small hands so the grips don’t fit me. Don’t know anything about the fas 604.

Don’t know if this will influence your decision but a drop in multi stroke conversion kit will be available for the IZH 46M in a few days. This drop in kit allows up to 8 strokes on the izzy and doubles the power. Takes this wonderful pistol from just being relegated to short range target shooting and opens the door for multiple uses.

kevin

Yes. It’s also why there are so many Korean PCPs with dual reservoirs. Their laws are different and regulate smaller-diameter tubes.

This has gone on since the first Daystate Huntsmen were built in the 1980s.

B.B.

The blade measures about 0.145″ wide.

B.B.

I blew out the seal a couple times also until I learned the breach had to be closed and locked with a solid click – I was treating her like a ballerina when she really wanted to be treated like a Ninja.

The grip that comes with the pistol is a bit blocky and is for a large hand, but is designed to be tailored. A dremmel with a sanding drum and some regular sand paper works well. All you do is sand away the parts that don’t look like your hand.

Pete, I’m in awe of your 10s at 10m, but I did do one 10 out of 10 shots today. It was even an x. I use the Gamo metal pellet trap targets that have a 2.5″ black bull with a 1″ white center and I’m happy to be in the black.

-Chuck

Mike

OK, I like my Steyr better, but not $1500 much better. The IZH is easily the equal of an FWB C-20 in accuracy even if the IZH also feels like it was made in a tractor factory. It’s cheaper than the FAS too. The only thing that’s temperamental is the breech seal. If you don’t make sure the gun’s breech is completely closed and clicks into place, you’ll blow one and maybe two O-ring seals. The instructions warn you. I’ve done it twice and found the seal on the floor and reused it both times.

Mine also likes RWS R-10s too; equally happy with heavy and light.

pete

A Caldwell rest I can understand. Thanks for explaining that.

B.B.

Thanks for the head’s up! I will go slow anyway, since I think an ld Beeman shoe will do exactly what I want.

B.B.

kevin

I’ll look into it.

Thanks,

B.B.

If I was that quick (and that good a shot) I probably would have done exactly what Mac said. But if I attempted something like that on purpose, the results would be embarrassingly obvious.

B.B.

First item ( size # 1 ) says it fits a Beeman Air Gun and they also have size # 11 that fits Sheridan Pellet Pistol.

W/R/T three or five pellets hitting the target, I’ll have to try that trick next time I’m shooting competition

Fred DPRoNJ

Correction on the Edge tank needing to be checked periodically. No pressure vessel smaller than two inches outside diameter has a DOT requirement to be checked.

B.B.

Thank you for your report on pellet seating. I have been working with the Bronco and have discovered two things that may have a bearing on the results I got with the peep sight. I will address both of them in an upcoming report, so look for it.

B.B.

Thank you for your comments. You are the first person I have heard of to use a machinist’s flat to check barrel straightness. That is interesting.

As far as barrel bending, you need to re-read the report, because I said that it is possible to bend a barrel by hand. It’s just takes more force than the effort required to cock the gun.

Welcome to the blog.

B.B.

I’m glad you enjoyed the report.

Your use of a Ransom rest for this air rifle has left me confused. I am only familiar with the pistol version of the Ransom rest that uses custom-made grips to hold the gun. I never heard of a Ransom being used on a rifle before.

B.B.

No, I don’t think price has anything to do with it. I think it has to do with when the item entered the production que.

The 34 is now an older design and harkens back to the days when people didn’t scope airguns. Of all the airgun manufacturers, Diana seems to have had the least interest in scoped guns, because in Europe, where the bulk of their rifles sell, people still do not scope their guns as much as we do in the U.S.

As newer designs emerge from Diana I think a lot more consideration will be given to the barrel angle.

B.B.

Caveman,
Upon much reflection, I can think of several reasons you do not see many Edges in competitions.
Firstly, the NRA/CMP is not giving them away to start up groups. They are giving away Daisys.
Secondly, most groups are on shoestring budgets so they usually buy the Daisys.
Thirdly, the Challengers have been around for quite a while and have established themselves and look more traditional.
Fourthly, the Edge has a tank which means it has to be checked periodically.
Fifthly, and probably the biggest reason, the Edge has a “black rifle” pedigree which it has to overcome.

As for the El Gamo, if I was a collector I would love to have one. It does look so cool. As far as “rifles” go, my collection is down to my FWB 601 and a rather bedraggled looking Red Ryder I picked up this weekend at a yard sale. I just sold my CFX. If I do not shoot it, it does not hang around long.

As BB’s results were very different, I’d suspect another factor came into play. Perhaps the particular pellets he used, or his Bronco had a slightly different breech diameter, or perhaps some AirGun Deity was laughing at the time. Or, he may be the norm, and I’m the odd one here. Perhaps there are some thing that we may not be meant to know.

Looking back at BB’s original Bronco postings, it’s not only at 25 yards but uses a different target, so I really can’t compare them. An earlier post is at 10m, but I’m still unsure of the target used. He may have mentioned this somewhere, but I can’t remember. For this post here, it looks like he uses a AR-5/10 target.

Two other points now come into this, regarding my 10m target practice with the Bronco. First, since the scope allows me to clearly see any small movements on my part, I should practice my hold and trigger with the scope mounted. If I get that nailed down, then when later replacing it with the peep sight, I have only the peep sight to concentrate on learning.

Second, this will better show me the ultimate accuracy of the Bronco and shooter (me), and any differences between brands of pellets. It will set a goal to try and reach with the peep sight mounted. Thus far for wadcutters, I’ve used Crosman Premier Super Match, RWS Meisterkugeln 7gr, and H&N sport Match Pistol. If there’s any difference between them, I just won’t see it at a 10m distance.

john

*”A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.” Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker’s Guide To The Galaxy

twotalon

When you change barrels, you will have to rezero. It will always be a little off when switching barrels.

The worst problem you could probably have is trying to shoot at 10 yds. The scope is going to set very high over the bore. The scope may not adjust enough at that range.

twotalon

Well please keep us posted on how it shoots for you?

B.B.

The Talon SS barrels are fixed in the frame by four screws that engage bushings which are, in turn, attached to the barrels by screws. So those barrels cannot easily be rotated.

The gun I was referring to that can be rotated was my Whiscombe JW 75, but now that I think about it the barrels have a fixed bar to engage the detent, so they can’t be rotated after all.

I guess I was mistaken about being able to rotate barrels.

B.B.

While I realize the term had been well adopted, I was just being my usual unreasonable stickler for precision and correctness of terminology. (Incidentally I’ve just discovered the DIY versions of Benji 392 modding, having despaired at Tim’s prices – not that I would doubt at all that he’s worth it! Just honestly not sure he’s still around, and as a retired engineer and vintage racing kart metal fabricator/welder -on a fixed income no less; I love to void my warranties, believing in: “Never own anything you can’t fix”

Being also a notorious spelling Nazi, I must apologize that I didn’t review my previous post or at least use spell check, being used to forums where you can edit your posts after entering.

Thanks again for your usual grace and cordiality, which I first enjoyed over the FB/BSOTW pic discussions. You are truly a class act that’s hard to follow! You represent Pyramyd well, and I hope they appreciate you.

Thanks

I have rotated scopes 90 degrees to the left for clearance problems. But most adjustment knobs will get inn the way of a 180. However, if you can do it, it will work.

B.B.

Wow! What a wonderful example of how this works! Of all the things that are possible, I never thought of illustrating barrel droop or misalignment the way you did. I have a gun that allows barrel rotation, too. But, whooda thunk of it?

Anyway, what a great way to introduce yourself to the blog. Welcome.

B.B.

I undrooped one once and ended up giving it just a bit of upward droop. Just enough that the scope was nearly on target with the scope centered. The scope can be adjusted for a longer range that way. It was not intentional, but I got carried away with the file before I checked.

twotalon

No scope can suffer extreme vibration for very long and continue to operate if it is adjusted outside its comfort zone. I have owned Leupold scopes that have been broken by airgun recoil.

But most airgun-worthy scopes can handle everything an airgun can throw at them, if they are within their adjustment range. Your Leapers scope is one of the most rugged scopes on the market, in this respect. But, it has to be within the right adjustment range.

What do I mean — the right adjustment range? The scope’s adjustments cannot be adjusted very high, nor very far to the right. Both conditions relax the erector tube springs that keep the scope’s reticles in place. If that happens, the scope will shift its zero with vibration. The greater the vibration force, the more the scope wants to be under strong spring tension to hold zero.

So how high and how far to the right is the scope adjusted that you are having trouble with? Look at that before anything else.

B.B.

I am impressed! I hoped you would read this blog, but I didn’t think you would sign in and admit it was your question. I actually didn’t know whose question it was — I was just asked to address it, which I hope you feel I have.

I hope from the reader responses you can see that a lot of fixed-barrel rifles also suffer from misaligned barrels. I agree that droop isn’t a very precise term for misalignment, but Tim McMurray of Mac-1 actually coined it many years ago, when he created one of the first, if not THE first “drooper” scope mounts. I still have the one I got from him. It was align-bored on a downward angle to compensate for barrel slant, or misalignment. After he came up with the phrase, everyone adopted it and today that’s what the bulk of the airgun community calls a misaligned barrel.

Anyway, thanks for weighing in on this and I hope you get something from the discussion.

B.B.

And you are correct that I consider “droop” to be separate from a misalignment of a straight barrel. I cosider it a semantic mistake, however well accepted in certain circles.
To me, the word droop still implies that the barrel itself is curved (or “Broken” and reassembled “crooked” as in the case necessary on a breakbarrel) – and BTW, in the downward direction only.

Otherwise one should say “misalignment”- of either the bore or the barrel. For one thing this avoids applying a term that implies a downward misalignment ONLY, to one that may be in any direction, possibly merely by twisting the barrel, in the case of correcting (or even exacerbating) a ‘bore concentricity’ issue with a “mounting” issue. Again, the foregoing assumes a fixed or non-break barrel.

And it also seems obvious to me yet, that a barrel that is more than one piece, essentially disassmbled and reassembled at every shot in a temporary fashion, has to have relevant probability of misalignment to a degree that would make accuracy problematic. For one thing, the differing random compression of the necessary seal material would ensure it.

I’m sure that on a VERY expensive gun these effects could be minimized. But again, low or high cost, the breakbarrel would seem logically less accurate for the same quality (and as a aside, realizing that price doesn’t always guarantee quality.)

above is a neat little story that was emailed to me.

Long live the Daisy # 25.

When I tested a TF99 for Compasseco, back in 2003, the accuracy (not droop, but general dispersion) was so great that I shot our couch! The hole is still there and Edith delights in showing it off to guests.

B.B.

My 1st springer, a TF99, fixed barrel, had around 3/8″ droop from receiver to muzzle. That is just sloppy mfg. Period. I had to tweak the barrel AND the receiver in a press just to get it close to straight so that I could scope it. Didn’t know about drooper mounts at the time, which might have saved me some aggravation, but it all worked out with the other work I did to it.

/Dave

Fred DPRoNJ

Before someone asks the obvious question, I’ll address it. Yes, there are airguns with barrels that slant up, plus point to the left and to the right too much for the scope to compensate. They’re not encountered as often as droopers, but they’re not unheard of.

I should photograph my Marlin Glenfield 60 for this thread. A distinct leftward installation — even the wood stock shows nearly a 1/4″ difference in thickness between left and right where the barrel leaves it.

But the receiver is “straight”… resulting in a definite triangle for one zero distance when sighting a scope. Fortunately (?) the Weaver K1.5 is so low powered it probably isn’t noticeable at .22LR distances. As I recall, I have small strips of Dr.Scholl’s moleskin in the mount as shims.

Changing subject slightly — it probably needs to be noted that having a high-mounted scope needed lots of adjustment downward probably can’t be called a droop problem (I’m talking things like the AirForce Condor with it’s near 3.5″ bore center to scope center — Of course if the sights are mounted that high they are going to need significant adjustment… Or pray the gun is powerful enough to zero at a far enough distance that even a small trajectory rise will intersect the sight line).

You’re probably right about that. I just didn’t want to paint a dark picture for the new person, because so often it doesn’t turn out to be a problem.

B.B.

I think you have the answer from twotalon. Mounting sights at the rear of the spring tube is where the barrel angle becomes noticeable, which is why most 10-meter target rifles have breech locks.

B.B.

Wouldn’t it be more fair to say that most break barrels DO droop, but not enough to cause a problem ?

By the way, most of the springers I get hold of DO droop enough to cause a problem.

twotalon

twotalon

twotalon

The breakbarrel examples you used have both the front and rear sights mounted on the barrel itself.
If a breakbarrel air rifle had a front sight mounted on the barrel, and a rear sight mounted on the spring tube, would the effect be the same as if both were mounted on the barrel?

Les

My first adult airgun was a diana 54. That gun had typical droop. Dramatic. It’s of course more pronounced at the shorter ranges we shoot airguns combined with the accuracy expectations we have. With our accuracy expectations we mount scopes on airguns that aren’t typically manufacturered for scopes and even in high end pcp’s that are expected to be scopecd there are high end tuners that make custom scope mounts to compensate for centering a scope over the bore. WHAT? On a $2,000 airgun I have to pay to have a set of mounts set up to compensate for a droop barrel or misaligned barrel? Yes.

I am an artist at shimming. I own or have owned almost every adjustable mount. I really like the EAW mounts. I am a great proponent of bending barrels. I have a 100+ year old cottonwood that has bent many airgun barrels. I think bending barrels on airguns is either thought of as blastphomy or witchcraft. It’s neither. It’s common. It’s effective. It’s seldom talked about. It’s easy.

kevin

Thanks. I have no children…other than Tom and the cats Tom insists on buying me a M-Day card so the cats can sign with their paw prints. Yeah, we’re strange

Edith

Pretty sure it was a Gun Digest publication.

Have you seen Sam Fadala’s Book of the .22?

Someone else wrote one too, I think.

Welcome to the blog.

I really don’t have anything else to test on the Torpedo 155. Is it still a rifle you intend buying?

B.B.

I don’t know of a good blog about .22 rimfires, but many of the guys on this blog own them and talk about them from time to time. If I see anything I’ll let you know.

Welcome to the blog.

B.B.

Welcome to the blog!

The El Gamo 68 will put in another appearance this week, so keep watching.

B.B.

BB you are by far the best. I’ve learned so much from you over the few years I’ve been plinking. Your style of writing makes it all fun to learn.

I have one off topic question. Can you give reference to a good blog about .22 Rimfire that is as good as this one? I haven’t found any. I’ve seen lots of forums.

Many, many thanks for your valuable service.

I really enjoy these posts on the older guns and its amazing how often you’ve provided what little can be found on some.

Gary

http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z244/twotalon/001.jpg

twotalon

Mike

Mike

I don’t really see what I might do in a Part 5. I gave this rifle all the chances I know of to do well.

Do you think I overlooked something?

B.B.

We didn’t think we would be able to hit them, so we didn’t try.

We were also concerned that we might hit something we didn’t intend to doing that.

Maybe we should have tried.

TT: Thanks. I think that is what they were.

Les

twotalon

We I was a kid, my friends and I would buy bb’s that came in red cardboard tubes. I don’t remember who made them, but they resembled red cardboard shotgun shells. The shot was copper plated.

The tubes were crimped shut at the ends. One end had a flat crimp, like a shotshell. The other end was crimped to a point.

We quickly learned that by biting the tube just below the pointed end, it would open up. The end could be resealed by simply pushing on it with the thumb.

We had all watched Civil War movies where the soldiers tore the wrapped cartridges open with their teeth. This inspired us to open the tubes with our teeth. We thought that was “way cool”.

When the little tube was empty, it made a good target. One of my favorite games was to toss the tube out on the ground, and shoot it until it hopped into a place where I could no longer get a clear shot at it. If there were puddles, they would float until they were sunk, or blown out of the water.

Les

I owned a Daisy 200 that broke, and I was interested in their longevity. Indeed a lot of them broke and they are one of the few airguns that are virtually unrepairable, along with the Daisy 300 carbine that was built on the 200 frame. Sad, because when they worked they were a poor man’s Crosman 600.

B.B.

Mike

Gad… I’ll never live long enough to tune in the Condor… After all, besides determining the flat part of the power curve I have: pellet weight/type vs power wheel for most consistent harmonic muzzle position (the desired position is at the extreme of muzzle movement — as that is the position at which the muzzle is moving slowest as it reverses direction; the “boresight” position only occurs when the muzzle is moving around the fastest — so even a small FPS change in the pellet can have the most change in accuracy)

I don’t even want to think about the Marauder (striker pre-load, striker distance, and that mystical flow-rate screw on the side, in addition to the pellet weight/type). We really need to get adjustable muzzle weights onto non-competition pellet guns — as that would let us adjust the harmonic behavior of the barrel without touching strikers/flow-rates

Now, if your regular tanks were suddenly 200fps slower — THEN I’d agree that something is wrong somewhere…

Jay

I’m very familiar with POD on Amazon and fully intend to use that avenue.

Everything takes time. We’re already back to working 7 days a week. On Wednesday, I worked 22.5 hrs. I worked 18 hrs. on Thursday. Printing books or reprinting our old Airgun Letter, Airgun Revue and R1 book publications would be nice and will eventually happen…but I just don’t see it happening anytime soon.

Edith

Condor High Power Tank dial 8-0 .22
RWS Super-H-Point 14.5 1143.3 42.08
JSB Exact Jumbo Heavy 18.2 1058.0 45.23
AirArms Field Plus 18.2 1068.0 46.09
H&N Crow Magnum 18.2 1076.0 46.78
H&N Baracuda Match 21.1 1010.0 47.79
Gamo TS-22 22.0 977.1 46.63
Eun Jin Round Nose 28.5 949.7 57.07
Eun Jin Pointed 32.4 939.5 63.50 2 samples

Micro-Meter tank resulted in roughly a 400fps drop in pellet speed at same setting. I need to, someday, chronograph the micro-meter tank over the power-wheel range, using a single pellet type — a la:

Condor High Power Tank dial 6-0 .22
H&N Baracuda Match 21.1 996.4 46.51
Eun Jin Pointed 32.4 890.9 57.10

Condor High Power Tank dial 5-0 .22
H&N Baracuda Match 21.1 954.8 42.71

Condor High Power Tank dial 4-0 .22
H&N Baracuda Match 21.1 936.9 41.12

The columns are: maker, model, weight, velocity, energy

although I need to clean the barrel.Kings were 760-780 fps,and they weigh 25.6gr.The barrel needs cleaned because my other tanks can shoot them well over 1200,so I’m sure theres leading.

Don’t be so sure…

Condor Micro-Meter Tank dial 8-0 .22
Beeman H&N Match 13.0 727.4 15.22
RWS Meisterkugeln 14.0 708.2 15.59
RWS SuperPoint 14.5 686.8 15.19
RWS Super-H-Point 14.5 702.2 15.87
Beeman Ramjet 16.0 680.0 16.43
Beeman Silver Ace 16.2 672.6 16.27
H&N Crow Magnum 18.2 635.6 16.33
H&N Barracuda Match 21.1 618.7 17.93
Eun Jin Domed 28.5 554.6 19.46
Eun Jin Pointed 32.4 511.0 18.78

Note that pellets ranging from 13gr to 21.1gr only varied by ~100fps in a .22 Condor (OH– these are not averages, but single shots each; I was afraid to try averaging as I was shooting from front-door to closet — 15 feet — and the noise was rather high for an apartment complex; averaging a few of each might reveal if the typical spread is wider or narrower). You only dropped 6gr between pellet types in a much larger diameter [likely less pellet-barrel friction change than between my EJ pellet pair].

I went metal detecting yesterday in a campground near where I work and found 9 pennies and a nickel. None older than 1974 (nickel). Not gonna get rich like that, but it was fun! When I think of all the ammo expended in my old neighborhood, I think that at least in my yard a guy would be digging pellets and bb’s up for at least a decade without good discrimination…

/Dave

The problem is distribution. Getting a book into a good distribution network is what is needed.

Most airgun books are self-published, and that precludes the distribution.

So it is essential to arrange with a publisher beforehand, and most airgun authors don’t do that.

B.B.

You mentioned that books on airguns are pretty rare, at best maybe only one a year. However, when I read your blog (and the goodly sum of intelligent comments responding to it), I can’t help but think that there are quite a few people that could write extensively on the subject. What is the reason for the shortage in literature? Is there is not enough interest among the general public? Is there no interest among publishers? Is there concern about not profiting from such an endeavor?

As a researcher and author, I am somewhat acquainted with the hassles of publishing. However, I can really see an opportunity for good literature to be written on the topic of airguns. It is a niche waiting to be filled (and thankfully, on such a topic there is no academic censorship). Frankly, I love reading about airguns just as much as I like shooting them and am eager to see more written.

By the way, I took the advice you gave me and bought a Leapers 3-9×50 scope to put on my Bronco. It should be coming today! I can’t wait to try it out.

I use the books that have the answers for the questions I’m asked most often. The number one question I get is, “What is my airgun worth?”

So the Blue Book is the book I refer to most often. However, sometimes there will beba question about a gun that isn’t in the Blue Book, or someone will want to knbow something that the Blue Book doesn’t address, so then it’s time to get out the specialty books.

I refer to the R1 book a lot because I have forgotten a lot of the facts I learned when testing the gun. But it’s all there, so I can refer to it any time.

And Smith’s Standard Encyclopedia of Gas, Air and Spring Guns of the World is another great resource. Smith tested things that are now well-recognized, and all I have to do is find them in his book.

Cardew is another popular resource. His tests are part of the culture, and that is a book every serious airgunner has to have, in my opinion.

B.B.

I don’t know everything they did, but I’m pretty sure they didn’t do that.

B.B.

Yep, the ideas just keep on a-comin’!

B.B.

That stainless steel striker is the only kicker I see. It may turn the Talon (or is it a Talon SS?) into a Condor of sorts. But we shall see, because my SS has a factory striker.

B.B.

Nobody is going to “drill you” for asking a question on this blog. And we really don’t have a good grasp on this phenomenon yet. It appears that deep-seating may help accuracy (and velocity) in some situations, such as with lower-powered spring guns. But we have a lot more exploration to do before we can say that for sure.

Welcome to the blog!

B.B.

B.B., you piqued my interest regarding the manufacture of b.b.’s.

Regarding the caseless cartridges airguns that fired them, it seems that the folks at Daisy were more rational that the fellow who created the Primegun. There can be no question that by the legal definition, both the Daisy’s caseless cartridges and the Primegun qualify as firearms.

Doing well physically; recovery from surgery seems to be going well. The neurosurgeon went out of town on the 9th; his staff tell me I had no appointment on the 10th; highly suspicious. The only reason I am irritated is because I expected him to write orders giving me more latitude and fewer restrictions. I will just continue getting better and see him in a few weeks (as long as they enter the appointment into the calendar and don’t lose it :-]

I use the Blue Book most, not so much for values but to get a little quick info on an unknown gun. I keep the latest edition at home, and earlier editions at work and in the truck. I have enjoyed reading your R1 Book, Airgun Letters, Airgun Digest 1-3, Cardew’s book, Jim Chapman’s books, Ron Robinson’s books, the collection of articles by Josh Eliott, etc. What other books should I add to the airgun library?

David Enoch

On second thought, even though I have had a valve apart a long time ago, I don’t remember if the back of the valve is counterbored under the valve seat. If it is, then my idea may be out the window.

twotalon

Off topic, but it’s something I just thought about and had to ask…

Did AF ever play with the idea of square vent holes in the talon valves instead of round ones, and making the holes start right at the bottom edge of the valve head ?

twotalon

But what I really want to comment on today is the Big Shot of the Week photo. I think it is fantastic!
A camera angle not usually seen, it really is an attention-getter!

Les

OTOH, if the large-mass piston is primarily responsible for the barrel vibration, the barrel will tend to a damped vibration at a certain frequency. As a heavier pellet travels slower through the barrel, it will pass out the muzzle when the barrel has flexed to a different point. The max flex will happen at the muzzle and where that’s aimed is where the pellet will go. On that point, I’ll note that at a custom airgun site in TX he actually bends the barrels to compensate for droop, claiming no loss in accuracy so it’s only near the muzzle that the direction is set.

While I’m confident that is correct, we don’t know how large that effect is, compared to those from several other factors. I’m also thinking it won’t be useful to do this test at 10m with that peep sight, as my groupings are already pretty small and eyesight will be a limit. With my scoped 1377 at 10m I can shoot overlapping holes, so I’ll probably move that scope to the Bronco for the test.

/Dave

For the zombie worried — might want to check the magazine racks for “Zombie Nation” premier issue…

AR-15 fitted for belt feed, and a trick stock that apparently allows the action to slide during recoil — so that when the recoil buffer pushed the action back forward, it pushes the trigger against one’s non-moving finger to fire the next round (supposedly they ship a copy of a letter from the BATF stating the stock is legal).

A low-powered Leupold scope with Hornady’s “ZombieMax” logo on the ocular bell (and the flip up lens cap includes a schematic of where to aim).

Along with previously announced ZombieMax ammo, green-colored knives, and zombie targets.

There’s a old trick, good if you have side-by-side or over-and-under out of slugs and with trouble incoming. Cut shells – about 1/2 length just around the base of the shot container, cut the outer shell, make it like 1 coil of spring – not a complete curcle. Then load and shoot. This load even with #8 produces horrible wounds and shock, enough to stop even a bear.

duskwight

Fred DPRoNJ

The thing I love about Talon family is its conception – up to the task. Pure function made into small number of metal parts and “Taxi is a car that moves you, yellow is not obligatory” look. Some time ago I asked if there are any pressure regulator models (I learned that such aftermarket solutions are produced and available) but now after watching its cycle on Youtube I wonder if anybody tried to make it into a sort of repeater. A paper and pencil evening for me
Still waiting for low engine and trigger parts – thermists overdid and made two parts as hard (and prone to break under load) as glass. Lots of reading, computing and drawing on springs for mechanism. I hope to keep as low as 100 grams on most sensitive setting with a short pull distance – parts will allow me that, but springs are a bit different computations, still very interesting.

My congratulations on VE Day to all!

It turned to be a 4-day holiday (including weekend) so me and Dad went hunting. 4 days in the outdoors is a refreshing experience, especially after a 3-year pause on my side (Dad goes hunting at least twice a year – or else skies fall on Earth and rivers start to flow back, so that was his extra hunt this spring). A perfect place to forget all your troubles I must say – to use a cellphone one must walk to the “phone station”, a hill 1 click away from our camp with pines at the top and call from there. Climbing pines may improve the signal
I have also seen a legendary “royal shot”, a shot woodcock falling right before Dad’s boots. I always considered it to be a sort of hunter’s tall tales as there must be some 10-15 meters range I thought, but now I believe it – no more than one step to bend down and take the kill. I’ve nothing to boast for myself – I didn’t take any chances so I spent just 4 shells for simple track-and-fire “sure shots” – woodcocks and a duck.
We met bear – I guess @100 m, grown up male, rather scraggy after winter sleep, it was digging sedge roots on the other side of the forest lake. No harm done, no bad intentions – both sides estimated their capabilities and pushed their respective backpedals getting back to their jobs. Later in the evening discussing that event we both noticed that we changed to slugs without exchanging a single word

duskwight

It probably won’t make much difference since the micro opens so easy. As soon as the valve starts to dump, there is less pressure trying to hold it down.

twotalon

Thanks for explaining that.

I will fill to 3,000 because that is the factory recommendation. Since I will chronograph every shot, we will see whether that is a good fill point or not.

B.B.

No, I did not shoot with Thomas Jones at DIFTA.

B.B.

Okay, I will continue this test with other pellets that repeat what was tested before.

B.B,.

The inside of a valve has both parts and a space. If the entrance hole from the reservoir into the valve is extremely small, high pressure air will not flow into the valve space fast enough to be exhausted from the gun with the shot.

In other words, it will take a second or more for the air pressure inside the valve to equalize with the air pressure inside the reservoir. If that is the case, the designer can treat the inner volume of the valve as a firing chamber of limited capacity, and can then design the striker force, the valve orifice and the valve return spring strength to work with just the air that’s inside the valve.

This gives you a closed system, for all intents and purposes, and allows you to parse air in small amounts.

B.B.

I fill my standard tanks to 180 because that’s where they shoot the best. The Condor tank to 190 for the same reason. I decided to just fill the micro to the same level.
Besides, it’s easier pumping too.

twotalon

Why did you stop filling at 190 bar? Why not go up to 206 bar?

B.B.

I can take a stab at explaining why different airguns have different fill levels, but it is akin to asking what is the meaning of life.

Girardoni, for example, was limited by the materials and technology of his time. A single-stage pump cannot get up over 800 psi, due to the weight of the person doing the pumping, and in his day people were smaller than they are today. Dennis Quackenbush and I demonstrated that in an Airgun Revue magazine several years ago. Besides, it was all a folded-iron pressure vessel of 1780 could do to hold 800 psi. Putting in more air would have been very risky.

The USFT stops at a max fill of 1,500-1,650 psi because Tim McMurray specifically designed it that way. I wanted the Discovery to stop at 1,800 psi and Crosman decided to make it stop at 2,000 psi, so that is why it does. Both the USFT and the Discovery are easy to fill from a hand pump, as a result of their low max fill pressures.

And the story goes on and on. Each time a decision is made for what seems to the designer to be a good reason — easy to fill from a pump, more shots, etc.

You might as well ask why there are so many model railroad gauges in existence. Why don’t “they” standardize on just one (or two — or perhaps three, and so it goes).

B.B.

There are limits to what I can do in one blog. It takes me 2-3 hours to do the testing and another 3-4 hours to write it up.

I know I changed the test conditions from the earlier tests. That is why I called attention to that in this report.

Since I want to test deep-seating again, I will use the Bronco to get that started.

B.B.,

On at least one example I’ve seen (B.B., did you shoot with Thomas Jones at DIFTA?), the rifling at the breech is very tight and “bitey” – enough that it’d be really tough on your thumb if you were seating pellets with your fingers alone. Thomas has a nice pellet seating tool that seems custom-made for his P70 breech. The pellet literally snaps into the rifling with a satisfying ‘pop’. Once seated, you can see that the skirt is already nicely engraved into the rifling, just 1 or 2 mm into the breech.

Does anybody know whether this P70 pellet seating tool is standard issue, or yet another custom doodad that shooters of these high-end target guns seem to have left and right?

-Jan

Could the new front sight cause a change in the harmonics, or something?

Maybe going back to the old sights and see if we return to the tighter groups?

Gene

twotalon

I considered the Edge at one point in time, and still have that gun on the bottom of my list. It’s accuracy, while very good (according to one of B.B.’s older blogs here), is not what I’d like to see in a gun touted to be shot for competition. The micro-meter tank and further reports on the Talon may very well put the Air Force line back on my list. Accuracy is very important to me. While I don’t compete, I do like to see a hole on a target at the point I aimed the gun at.

I’m going to follow these tests very carefully.

Since you will be doing the 12″ .22 barrel, I will throw in what I had with the 12″ .177 barrel to the best of my memory. It has been a while….

I filled to 180 or 190 bar, and shot 8.4 Exacts. PW set to the bottom.
I shot until the velocity clearly had dropped 100 fps.
First shot 700 fps. Steady but slow velocity drop as the shooting continued. No bouncing up or down in velocity as shooting continued.
At around shots 100-120, there was a small velocity bounce starting. It progressively got worse running out to 130 shots. In this case, “worse” is only relative. My Talon should should shoot shot to shot as smoothly !!!

Anyway, it took 130 shots to make sure that the velocity had dropped 100 fps from the starting velocity. 700 fps shooting down to 600 fps.
Graphing it out, you could draw a straight line from the first shot to the last shot. You could clock the first shot , then blow off 128 shots on anything, then clock one last shot for 130 total …
Then plot these two shots and draw a straight line between them. At any point along the line, you could tell the shot number and velocity.

I did not test for accuracy through the string. Was only watching to see how the micro was working for velocity.

twotalon

I changed it back to 500. I’ve sent screenshots to IT and asked them to please fix it because it clearly says the number of POSTS is supposed to be limited to 50. Apparently, that function is also limiting the number of COMMENTS to 50, too.

Edith

Firefox 3.6.28 (yes, old — 1) I don’t like the interface of the newer Firefox on my laptop [having to go through one menu to reach the bookmarks list, for example]; 2) Mozilla’s stupid idea of issuing a new /version/ every six months rather than a patch set [Mozilla is incrementing versions faster than most corporation IT departments can test and approve the product -- patches on a single version don't get as much scrutiny]

Sage RSS plug-in.

J-F

It will hit a 100 comments (we’ve had quite a few with over 100…and even over 200 and over 300). When the blog post supplies lots of fodder for discussion, such as the possibility that there’s more than meets the eye in the post, the discussion really picks up. While B.B. writes the blog post, our readers have so much to offer that we learn a lot from them. It gives us additional insights we might never have gotten without them.

Also, there was considerable off-topic chat today. The catnip comments contributed quite a few comments. And that’s okay, too

Edith

I misspoke and had corrected myself with a supplementary comment:

The RSS feed for the blog POSTS was the one reduced to the 50 latest. Since there are 5 a week, I’ve allowed 50 blog posts — or 10 weeks — to download with the RSS feed for POSTS.

The RSS feed for blog COMMENTS still sits at 500. I won’t deprive you of getting all the comments if you decide to take off a weekend

Edith

Same Bronco, two tests.

In the 1st test, the gun was accurate when seating pellets flush by hand.
In the 2nd test, the gun required deep seating pellets with a tool to be accurate.

I’m guessing this is just because of a change in pellets.

What were the results of the 2nd test using the same pellets as the 1st test? Bad accuracy?
If so, why ???

Could make a big difference for some rifles that are very hard to find a good pellet for. At least it is another way to give it a try.

twotalon

You two are too much. You never fail to make me laugh. The atmosphere you unintentionally create is without equal. Very comfortable place to visit. Thanks.

kevin

My wife isn’t my mother but she is a mother. She receives gifts from me on Mother’s Day because I’m very appreciative and want to acknowledge her talents and significant contributions in that role.

kevin

twotalon

I don’t want to imagine the cross-breeding that required…

To grow it in a pot, give it as much sun as possible and a little fertilizer. Hope your cat does not get wise to what it is.

twotalon

J-F

J-F

Once you get it started, it keeps spreading unless you keep mowing it off or hit it with weed spray.
A lawn mower or weed eater hitting a mature plant loaded with ripe seed will shoot the stuff all over the place.

Frost does not kill it. Have dug it out of the snow. A little wilted, but the cats don’t care.

twotalon

twotalon

J-F

If I’m not mistaken it’s the same company who makes the Tanfoglio Witness 1911, GSG 92, and SIG Sauer P226 excellent replicas.

4 of these are rated at sub quarter groups at 10M, and they include a generic 1911, the Luger, the TT33 and one of BB’s favorite BB pistol the Makarov. I hope we can buy those not yet available soon.

J-F

twotalon

I reckon your experience today is how this will go for a long time. Sometimes it will seem to work and other times it may not work. Or the difference will seem too small to be decisive.

Any test we construct will always have some kind of bias because of normal shooter error, getting tired as we shoot and so on.

What we will eventually need is a blind test, in which the shooter is unaware of how the pellet has been seated. But even that may not work, because I can detect a small difference in the feel of the shot from flush-seated to deep-seated.

At any rate it gives us old men something to talk about on warm days when we sit on park benches and feed the pigeons.

B.B.

twotalon

I had to try the pellet seating idea.

Used my normal setup: Shoot from bench. Used 6″ diameter target on box on table at 25 yd. 30 rounds on each target, max. possible score 300.

Pellet used for all shooting was Cabelas 7.9 grain wadcutter. Bronco Target gun.

My first target was shot with pellets inserted by hand, flush with breech. Score of 266. My previous best score with this combination of gun and pellets was 277, pellets seated by hand.

The next target was shot the same way, only the pellets were all seated with a Bic Pen. Score was 279, the best so far with this gun. After the first five shots, the red point of aim had disappeared.

I was disappointed with my first target, and thought I could do better. Put up another target and shot another 30 rounds, seating the pellets by hand. Score of 263.

So what did today prove? The seated pellets definitely outperformed the unseated ones. Today.
But although they performed considerably better than the unseated ones today, they were only marginally better than the best performance by unseated pellets overall. I thought about shooting a fourth target today, seating the pellets again, but I was getting hot and my score was already beginning to slip.

I did get a tighter group with the seated pellets than with the unseated ones. Next time, I’ll shoot another target with seated pellets and see what I can get. If I can keep my groups tight, I think I can improve my 279 score.

I also have two cats. One goes nuts for nip, the other is not affected at all. Yesterday I planted two patches of “white and green cat grass” in the back yard. Is that the same stuff as nip?

I’ve heard this stuff attracts mountain lions, but it’s been several months since we’ve had one in town.

Les

I tried growing it before but the cat finds it and pulls the plant out and eats it before it gets to any good size.

I know where that is. Thanks!

B.B.

I see too many differences for those to be the same gun. They both copy the Tokarev, so they will naturally look alike.

B.B.

Since we can’t get anymore TT pistols from Russia, Crosman was smart to create their own version. The advantage the Russian version had was that it was made from the original TT firearm. It wasn’t an airgun originally. I think that was a big part of the draw. It could be field-stripped like the firearm and was rock solid.

Edith

Here is the review http://airgun-academy.pyramydair.com/blog/2010/05/izh-mp-656k-or-tt33-bb-pistol-part-1/

And here is the crosman version http://www.crosman.com/airguns/pistols/UC-TT
Interesting. One more pistol crosman rebranded…

Send me an email at edith@pyramydair.com. I need to know which browser & the version you use + which OS & version. Please send me a screenshot of what you see when you download the RSS feed. I’ll forward everything to our IT dept. They may contact you directly after that.

Thanks,
Edith

What department were they in?

B.B.

Some cats like it fresh and green better, some like it dry better. Some don’t care either way as long as they get it. Some could care less about nip in the first place. Some go nuts just from smelling it, some would rather eat it.

Agressive or nutso behavior is the usual thing.

The store bought stuff usually sucks. The cats think so anyway.

It’s fun to season a few of those store bought mousies in a jar of nip overnight, then hand them out the next day.

twotalon

For perspective, here is Bootsie guarding the stash. He is not a small cat….
http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z244/twotalon/DSC_0006-2.jpg

twotalon

Edith

Exactly where in my comment did I say I’d lost my marbles?

Edith

The catnip is so incredibly potent & long lasting, that weeks after it’s been vacuumed up, our female cat writhes around on the space on the carpet & yowls and carries on like she’s in heat. Even though she’s spayed, it stirs up a LOT of interest with our neutered male cats. I have to be careful to put it down for only a very short period of time & then vacuum it up thoroughly with the Dyson. We can’t leave the house because at least 2 cats will get into a fight until the effects wear off completely. This stuff is really crazy powerful. I keep it inside 2 freezer Ziploc bags tucked inside a plastic shopping bag that’s knotted at the top. It’s lost a LITTLE potency, so I no longer have to keep it in the chest freezer in the garage to prevent the cats from destroying the 3 bags to get to it.

Your original package will probably last their lifetime.

Thanks,
Edith

You’re getting sleepy… When I snap my fingers, you’ll bark like a chicken!

B.B.

The feed was messing up the RSS feed to the home page of Pyramyd Air. I changed it so only the last 50 comments get posted. That means you’ll have to follow them regularly to get all the messages.

If anyone has a problem with the # of messages downloaded thru the RSS feed, let me know. I can set it to any number of comments. It was set at 500, which was excessive. Maybe 100-200 would be better. Let me know.

Edith

I am a low-maintenance woman: I rarely ask for anything & usually talk myself out of anything I do want.

Birthdays are fun days at our house: Whoever is the celebrant gets to eat/do anything they want on that day. Modest gifts are also given, as is a card. The cats usually add their paw prints and some cat humor to the card

Valentine’s Day: I feel it’s just a commercial holiday. No cards, no gifts, no chocolates, no nothing. And it’s MY choice. Soon, we’ll be married 30 years, and Tom still asks me every February if the same rules apply to V-Day. Apparently, the barrage of commercialism spooks him annually

Anniversaries: We go out to eat + a movie if it’s on a weekend. We used to give cards, til both of us forgot our anniversary one year til his oldest sister called & reminded us. We decided that our marriage could stand one less card exchange. Why get a card when you can just say it yourself?

Edith

I don’t know what you did, but the RSS feed now works with my reader. Thank you!

Edith says we still have a lot. We only give that rocket fuel stuff to them occasionally. They get the watered-down store version most of the time.

Thanks for asking,

B.B.

Yeah, the other things like….
Happy power plant does not mean that the muzzle will not be at a high vibration point, or that the pellets are good fliers in the first place. It all has to come together, but sometimes does not.

twotalon

That’s a good plan. I will do it that way. But I’m sure there are other things to think about.

I’m considering using my R8,m or maybe an HW55.

B.B.

That’s less than I expected. This weekend, I’ll try it with 0.02 and 0.2. If either has a significant effect, I’ll play with the depth a bit. I’ve got until the end of July before the state competition, so there’s time and value for looking into this.

And, now that my accuracy is much better than before, I’ll retest several different pellet types and try varying the hold again.

I don’t think Edith is Tom’s mother. Her appropriate day is called “wedding anniversary”; sometimes “Valentine’s day,” and every year “birthday.” And if you’re as lucky as we, there are two wedding anniversaries a year, one for each of two weddings.

And if he forgets any of the three, her remedies may be hanging on the wall. And the personal days are easier to forget than the commercial holidays because there’s no saturation TV to remind him.

pete

You’ve confused me with another kevin. I’m the one in real estate. The broke one.

kevin

At least I saved you a little time by reminding him about Mothers Day.

kevin

You still got enough nip ? I am in the process of harvesting a spring batch.

I should ask Bruce too…I think he might have been smoking it instead of giving it to his cats.

twotalon

Sarcasm alert:

Oh, THANK YOU for thinking of me.

Edith

You might start out flush seated (against the inlead), then adjust just far enough that the skirt is engaged just barely past the edge of the rifling (or about even by eyeball), then add 1/2 or 1 turn to the tool at a time (depending on how fast the thread is).

twotalon

If you burnt your money, Kansas would suffer nuclear winter for a week!

B.B.

You’re a funny man with crazy ideas.

IF I had your money I’d burn mine.

kevin

Don’t you start going all anal on me!

I miked the depth (using the probe on a dial caliper) and the edge of the pellet skirt is 0.020-inches. But remember — I don’t know if that is the best depth for my gun, nor do I know if your gun will respond the same.

B.B.

That rifle is valued at more than my truck!

Of course I have old shoes that are also worth more than my truck, so that’s not really such a big thing.

I think YOU should buy it and then start a lending program to circulate it around the blog readers. I would be up for that!

I think the evaluation is too low and the rifle will realize five figures. A military Girardoni now sells for over $30,000 euros in good condition.

B.B.

On the hold differences, I’d suspect we’re dealing with the barrel vibration from both the piston stoke and the air release. If there are resonances involved, some rifles could end up far less hold sensitive than others, just due to manufacturing differences. This would also have some have some contribution to the different ammo tolerance, with weight and dimensions being other factors.

The reason I said resonances is that near a resonant point a very small change at the right place can have a large effect. Maybe one day I’ll look into measuring this, which should be possible with low-mass accelerometers and would be a fun thing to do.

Yes, I thought about that. Certainly when I test seating depth I also have to test velocity with the pellet seated both ways.

B.B.

The bolt on my C-62 and the one on my LP-10 do have tapers before the O-ring seal, and that probably acts as a positioning device as well as a seal to ensure that the discharged gas flows right along the pellet axis (which I think can also be a contributor to poor grouping if it doesn’t, and if it happens to flow in part and asymmetrically around the sides of the pellet).

I’ll have to look at my FWB-300. I thought it had a taper.

pete

I know you’ve written quite a bit about the history and workings of a Girandoni. Since you’ve never done a blog on accuracy I wish you would.

Here’s one that you could trade for and use as the test gun:

http://www.czernys.com/auctions_lot.php?oggetto=44807&asta=35

Here’s the translation:

“description: Octagonal, striped cane, fine decorated in gold and silver, adorned with effige of an angel whom sound the bugle, a vase, fiorami and l’ registration ” in Wien” , equipped of I raise variable and view-finder, cal. 11 milimeter; on the skillful flank the tubular loader for seventeen blows, adorned with a little one fiorame in silver, fortified of sportellino revolving in the front and dosatore part to carved motivating force to floreali reasons; motivating force A battery in ahead with long folder recorded with the ” C” (for Contriner) and with floreali decorations; false dog recorded; the contropiastra worked en suite, recorded with the ” J” (for Joseph) and fortified of sure; wide codetta in iron carved with a trophy to flags, ghirlande and bands of flowers, to the center a badge in bringing gold an recorded gun; case in carved wood to floreali reasons; fornimenti in iron decorated from refined carvings, floreali recordings and partially golden; ponticello with trophy, troncoconico soccer with tank d’ leather air, covered brown. Baton in wood. notes For Joseph Contriner you see ” Der Neue Stockel” , vol. I, pag. 239. It begins l’ apprenticeship already in 1798, to Vienna, where he becomes single Master twelve years after, many of its works have been ordered from the viennese court.”

If not made for a king it’s certainly fit for a king. Or a Gaylord. Maybe a mothers day gift idea for Edith?

kevin

A change in seating depth is going to screw with the power plant’s pressure curve. A different amount of pressure buildup to get the pellet to start moving. Also the extra air space behind the pellet.

I would guess that if B.B. had run these over the chrono (after deep seating), he would have seen an improvement in consistency. It was crummy in his first tests way back. About a 30 fps spread.

twotalon

Most 10-meter air rifles and pistols (the really good ones) have probes on their bolts that seat each pellet. So the answer to your first question is yes, almost all world-class target shooters do seat their pellets — even if they don’t think about it.

Of course the older vintage guns like the FWB 300 do not have probes, and that leads me to the field target shooters. Their guns are often made so they cannot easily use pellet seaters. And the PCPs they shoot mostly do have probes.

There are exceptions to this. The USFT doesn’t use a probe, though it might be possible to use a manual one.

B.B.

I thought I covered that in the report. In the past I shot 10-shot groups at 25 yards using a scope. And five-shot groups at 10 meters using the Williams sight.

B.B.

pete

I say this because the complaint was that this rifle is not shooting as well during this run of tests as it was during some run of tests in the past. Did I understand that correctly?

My point being, when you were shooting acceptable groups during that run of tests in the past, you were not seating pellets then so how do you explain that?

-Chuck

But I’ll be interested, B.B., to see your futher reports on this. As well as the other’s on here. I have an older Beeman pellet seater as well. Normally I seat pellets with the back of my fingernail, to make sure it’s flush with the breech. Hopefully, this weekend I’ll get a chance to take my new Bronco (I put a scope on mine) out in the backyard and give it a try with flush and deep seating.

I’ll look and see if I can find my Beeman Pell Seat tool. That would be a good thing to run in the upcoming test of the PellSet tool.

The great benefit of the PellSet is the adjustability. I want to test it right away, but I’ll let some time pass so I can think about the best way to do this.

B.B.

I use the now defunct Beeman Pell-seat, which gives you the choice of a little past flush or deep fit depending on the end used. I have played with this tiny tool extensively over the years.

Spring rifles being the complex ladies they are, my experience is you cannot draw any absolute conclusions.

However – their is always a “however”, Magnums tend to loose power when seated with the deep end and often their is no accuracy benefit. On the other hand, the ball end which seats them just a bit keeps the pellet from being clipped by the closing barrel, assures it has an “even” start etc.

I think Kevin will agree, I sent him a spare I had and he quickly became a fan of the consistency – which is really the key – no magic here – a pellet that starts exactly the same tends to end exactly the same. He abandoned the Bic pen approach once he had the real deal.

I did run into a couple rifles that preferred the “deep seat” always assume something was not right with breach.

Thanks! I don’t have the pellet seating tool, but I do carry a Bic Pen to the range with me. Next time out, I’ll shoot a target using the pen, and one without, and see how they compare.

My best targets with the Bronco were shot with 7.9 grain Cabelas wadcutters. They performed better than 7.5 grain Gamo wadcutters. On the other hand, my XT shot best with Cabelas 10.5 grain domed pellets.

Les

Mac has a similar problem. Carpal tunnel, but in his elbows instead of the wrists. Both hand have dead fingers as a result. I understand the problem and perhaps that is one good reason for a pellet pen.

B.B.

Your shooting techniques have made me a better shot with all rifles. Firearms and airguns. Thank you.

Springers still captivate me because they’re like women. Each has a unique diet and a preferred way of being held. Springers have personalities IMHO. Rimfires are their kissing cousins in the powder burning world.

I don’t think there are “degrees” of the artillery hold. There are variations. The variations IMHO are firmness of hold, cheek pressure and hand placements. For me, a lack of tension, i.e., “dead” should always be a goal when shooting. When benching a gun my last step before pulling the trigger is to close my eyes and when I open them the gun should still be on target. If it isn’t, I’ve got tension somewhere that I overlooked.

I’m hitting this/your point very hard since I’ve seen good springer shooters turn into great springer shooters just by implementing this bench rest technique. Close your eyes before pulling the trigger. If you’re off target when you open your eyes you need to resettle into your shooting position. Minimizing tension is my goal. Follow through is my last thought.

kevin

Pellet pens help me a lot with break barrels (with DOMED pellets). Dumping some pellets in my shirt pocket causes some problems. First, there is always lint and cat hair . Sometimes other dirt (I do mow grass, run a weed wacker, and work on things). Next, my dexterity is not what it used to be. Nerve damage in my hands from chemo. Half the time I have to look at a pellet before attempting to load it because I can’t tell by feel which end is which. Sometimes I pick up two pellets at a time without knowing it, because the nerves are not sensitive enough to tell. I finish seating them with my finger nail.

twotalon

This does open an entire universe for exploration, doesn’t it? I’m going to assume that deep-seating affects lower-powered spring guns for the present. but eventually I will get around to testing…!

You have given me a wonderful idea. I have the perfect tool to test this. My Whiscombe. But because the harmonics also change with velocity I need to give it a lot of though before embarking on a test. This could take the rest of my life!

B.B.

Are you referring to the breech chamfer? It is uniform around the entire breech. The light I used for the macro shot, plus the angle of the camera only enhances the bottom, which I did intentionally to show the rifling inside the bore. But it looks the same around the entire breech.

Or have I misunderstood you?

B.B.

I am still on the fence about the pellet pens. I have been using them on and off for more than a year and I still don’t see the need for them. But this little tool…!!!

B.B.

I used Hobbys only because they seemed to be working well this time, and I wanted to concentrate on other things. Yes, I think there are probably other pellets that will out-shoot Hobbys in this rifle.

Having said that, look what I did with Hobbys!

B.B.

You are giving this a lot of thought, and that is good. That’s what we need to learn whether things like this tool really help or not.

So here is something you can do with your Bronco without buying anything. Use a common Bic pen to seat your pellets, and test that against the best way you are loading your Bronco at present. Of course there is no adjustment with the Bic, but we don’t know for sure that different seating depths even matter yet.

I temporized in the report when it came to the bias issue, because the last flush-seated group looked so good, except for the one flier. I think deep-seating is the answer for thins rifle, but as you point out, I’m not certain. All I know for sure is that in this one test where eight ten-shot groups were fired, cleaning the barrel helped a little and deep-seating helped a lot.

One final observation gives me some confidence that deep-seating really does work with my rifle. If you look at both sets of groups, each target in both sets seems to have landed in the same place, but the deep-seated pellets do land in a slightly different place than the flush-seated ones.

B.B.

I just got lazy! Actually I was prepared to follow up with JB Paste if needed, but it didn’t seem to be. The bore came out sparkling clean after just brushing it and then cleaning it.

B.B.

Well, I am looking for exactly the best way to present and test this tool. I see pictures, explanations and of course the before and after tests.

This is one where you guys can also participate, by doing the same thing as me. I think this little tool may be a real find!

B.B.

This is a case where I should have worded it more precisely. I did use the artillery hold, but I had forgotten how important a dead hold can be. So perhaps what I should have said was that with this Bronco it was important that I used the “perfect” artillery hold, because the dead part is the final touch to doing it right.

B.B.

Mike

Looks like I ordered my pellet pens too soon. Mine did not come with the seating tool or the neck strap. Have to stick them in my shirt pocket like a Bic pen.

The pens work great with round nose, but they don’t work very good with wadcutters.

twotalon

You have me puzzled as to why you did this test with Hobby pellets when your previous testing indicated that they were one of the worst possible choices…..bad velocity spread and bad groups.

You maybe need to put a sticker on the stock with the best pellets to use when you keep a rifle?

twotalon

You’re the man! You rule! WALG (What a Lucky Guess) Congrads sir.

Bruce

The first was as accurate as all git out, in spite of this I gave it to my nephew.

The second one (purchased used from PA) has a smother shot cycle, and is in the same ballpark but not quite as accurate as the first. I think I just need to do more research to find the right pellet to get it shooting like the first one. I lack the discipline to shoot 10 shot groups, but I have shot 5 shot groups into one hole at 10 yards. It is a wonderful airgun indeed. Thank you BB, for what you have wrought.

I’m just using Crosman Premier Super Match 7.9. You say the Bronco is twitchy on hold sensitivity. Yes, I’m seeing a full lock-down hold opening up to about .9, but several different light (floating) holds on the barrel end don’t seem to effect it. I also started locking my thumb around the stock and that improved the grouping, and light cheek contact didn’t matter. Note that I’m NOT arguing your “artillery hold” comments in general. My Gamo whisper IGT needs most of what you’ve mentioned on that topic. For that matter, most of what I know here came from you.

I’m using the same sight as you and 10m range. I may be more used to the Bronco and sight at this point, as I’ve been practicing for several weeks now. I’d like to hear from some other Bronco owners on what they’re seeing here, to see which of us has the more typical Bronco.

There’s a distinction between the “Artillery Hold” and a “dead hold” that I dont’ grasp.

You said, “The artillery hold…How many of you guessed that the secret to good shooting was the artillery hold? Guess again, because I saw no difference between resting the rifle on the flat of my palm and on the backs of my fingers.

One thing I did rediscover was the need to hold the Bronco absolutely “dead” in my hands rather than with any tension built in.”

I always thought the “artillery hold” and “dead in your hands” was one in the same. The similarities being “how light”, i.e., no cheek contact, back of fingers, no thumb over wrist (thumb up), etc.

You make a distinction but I’m too dense to understand. Please elaborate. Thanks.

kevin

Ken

J-F

J-F

I’m really looking forward to tomorrow’s blog.

Les

If you’re satisfied don’t clean it until the accuracy you’re satisfied with diminishes.

My point in cleaning all barrels in new guns that arrive at my place are to eliminate a variable to establish a baseline of accuracy.

kevin

Any point in cleaning it at this point? I have all the stuff needed to clean it (the XT and the RS2 improved after cleaning per B.B.’s instructions).

I am satisfied with its accuracy, but am always interested in improvement.

Or is it, “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it”?

Les

IMHO new airgun barrels need cleaning immediately with a bronze or brass brush loaded with jb bore paste followed by patches followed by your favorite oil (otis bore solvent, fp10, ballistol, etc. etc.) then more patches until they come out clean. My last step is to put a patch through the barrel with your favorite oil and follow with a clean, dry patch. The alternative is to shot a few tins of pellets through your new barrel and not expect much accuracy until the first tin of pellets are shot. There are exceptions but my regiment is cleaning the barrel of any new airgun that arrives at my house. If nothing else it takes a dirty barrel out of the accuracy equation.

ps-I’m going to guess that B.B. took his thumb off the wrist of the bronco and rested the forestock on the backs of his fingers to eliminate the flyers.

kevin

Fred DPRoNJ

But, I think I’m seeing me and not the Bronco. My last big gain was just from increasing the lighting on the target. These eyes are getting older.

/Dave

David H.

On the subject of metal wearing, I’m the proud new possessor of a barong, a sort of machete and short sword favored by tribes in the southern Philippines. So, there I am in the sweaty jungles with this amazing new weapon! Apparently, it achieved notoriety in the Spanish-American war for its ability to cut through rifle barrels. I’ve heard the same about samurai swords in WWII. Is this true? I thought the wisdom is that no blade can cut something harder than itself. I found that out the hard way (in my young and ignorant days) when I ruined my Cold Steel Voyager by using it to try to cut through a steel cable. If rifle tempering is anything close to blade tempering, I don’t see how any sword could cut through a barrel.

MythBusters took care of that a few years ago… As I recall, the best they obtained was bent barrels after heating them red-hot in a forge and using the pneumatic “super samurai” swinging machine. And lots of shattered blades.

I get my best groups with my springers directly off my rubber rest that is mounted on my camera tripod. I know that is contrary to what BB normally finds. I suspect that I just don’t keep as steady supporting the gun with my palm or fingers as BB does. When I support off my hand I can see the rifle move up and down as my hear beats. I think the most important things when shooting any springer are to be consistent shot after shot and to hold your position after the trigger is pulled long enough for the pellet to leave the barrel. Most of my misses are pulled off target by moving after the trigger is pulled. Years ago I got into a bad habit of wanting to look up as soon as the trigger is pulled to see where I hit. I have fought that habit for more than 20 years.

David Enoch

I hadn’t supposed that brass brushes can remove metal but on the other hand, I’m not surprised. While cleaning, a stray bristle stabbed itself someway into my finger, just like a needle. Yeow!

But as for the mystery, I’m completely stumped as usual. So, I will do the tarantula dance and outwait B.B. to make him tell!

On the subject of metal wearing, I’m the proud new possessor of a barong, a sort of machete and short sword favored by tribes in the southern Philippines. So, there I am in the sweaty jungles with this amazing new weapon! Apparently, it achieved notoriety in the Spanish-American war for its ability to cut through rifle barrels. I’ve heard the same about samurai swords in WWII. Is this true? I thought the wisdom is that no blade can cut something harder than itself. I found that out the hard way (in my young and ignorant days) when I ruined my Cold Steel Voyager by using it to try to cut through a steel cable. If rifle tempering is anything close to blade tempering, I don’t see how any sword could cut through a barrel.

But for anything short of that, such as plant and human limbs, the barong is unstoppable. I’d be glad to prune someone’s yard for free with this thing.

Matt61

Mike

I’m still relatively new to the air-gunning world, but I’ll take a stab at this. You mentioned a flyer here or there. I’m guessing one of two things (or both). 1. Did you take greater care seating the pellet to make sure the skirt wasn’t being damaged when closing the barrel? or 2. Did you weigh the pellets so as to only use uniform weights?

I expect there is some intricate scientific answer, but I’m a finance guy, not an engineer. That’s my best crack.

Fun!

SE MN Airgunner

The sights ARE higher on the Bronco now that BB installed the risers. Thus, the rifle is so much more sensitive to cant. I’ll bet BB put a level on the gun for tomorrow’s report.

-Chuck

First of all, when you hear the hiss of gas — stop turning the piercing screw. The CO2 cartridge doesn’t need to be screwed in tight to seal. In fact, just the opposite. The face seal that the CO2 cartridge contacts will seal with very little pressure, as long as the cartridge tip is oiled with Crosman Pellgunoil.

Second, you don’t mention if your gun is leaking gas. Is it? can you leave it charged for a day and still shoot it the next day? If so, the gun is sealing fine and there is nothing to worry about.

B.B.

Sometimes a brand-new barrel has corrosion left there by the bluing salts. That’s why it’s sometimes good to clean even a new barrel.

B.B.

After seeing how I butchered the wood stock on the Bronco I can see how you might think I would do that.

But, no.

B.B.

No idea what the “secret” of the Bronco is, but I’m sure you found something. I think it was an extremely important point that you made about “knowing” it was accurate before.

- cleaned bore with JB paste?
- Tightened screws?

T.E.

Your review on the NP Trail convinced me to get the .25 NP XL . Heavy gun, heavy charge but very accurate off-hand when using this modified hold and amazingly quiet for a 30 foot pound rifle.

I’m very much looking forward to seeing what you came up with.

I shoot all my springers at 25 yards. I’ve devised a system that I use to compare individual gun’s performance and my own.

I use Shoot-n-C 6″ targets, applied to a box set on a table at the same height as my shooting bench. I shoot 30 rounds at each target, giving a maximum possible score of 300.

All my springers are scoped, except for my Bronco Target Rifle. Using the factory-installed target sights, my best score with this rifle was 277. This is a mid-range score in comparison to my scoped springers. For comparison, my best score with a scoped springer is 285 for a Crosman Storm XT with a Tasco 3-9×40mm scope.

As you can see, I’m no Matthew Quigley. But I do keep a notebook of each trip to the range, my score and what I shot (and what pellet was used).

When I got my Bronco, I was concerned that there may be an interference from the front sight screws as mentioned in the first chapter of this blog. I could find no evidence of this. I have not tried cleaning the barrel. I would not expect to need to clean the barrel of a new gun.

I am satisfied that my new Bronco can shoot with comparable accuracy to my scoped springers (better than most, actually). But if there is a secret to gaining more accuracy, I want to know.

For what it is worth, I think the key to the accuracy of the Bronco is in its trigger. The release is so light that the gun can be fired without jarring it with excessive force on the trigger.

As with all my spring guns, I use Tom’s Artillery Hold.

Les

If it fits…it will make a good rear sight.

Could your fix have been as simple as tightening up the stock mounting screws?

Bruce

I intentionally didn’t include the groups because we have some readers who, once they see a large group, stop reading and figure the gun is inaccurate. If you had seen these groups you would have thought the same thing.

Yes, they were fairly round, but each of them had a couple fliers that opened the group up. Tomorrow I will reveal what it took to stop those fliers from happening.

B.B.

The blog probably came back up a bit at a time.

Edith

Is anyone else using RSS getting something equivalent to “feed parse error”?

What did I do that was different? A hint — I’ve done it before with similar results.

Changed your front hand hold point…

Ken

Mike

El Gamo is the same as the current Gamo company. They dropped the “El” in their name. They’re an old Spanish company that was family-owned until a few years ago, when they sold it to a holding company.

Edith

The guys are ribbing each other

Edith

Yeah, I’m just sitting her staring out the window & wondering what I’ll have for my afternoon snack

I fixed it. Both scoped & unscoped guns are now linked to part 3. The new site does not update immediately, but the old site does.

Thanks,
Edith

Maybe it’s a matter of boundaries. I draw the line at outright falsehood and deception and also endless talking to no purpose like in Chinese bargaining that goes on forever and never gets anywhere. It offends my sense of productive communication.

But I will say too, that perhaps my viewpoint is influenced by living alone. I’m used to giving the orders because there is no else to account for. However, I just now happen to be involved in a collaborative writing situation where I am having to learn fast about compromise. Argh. So, yeah, it is unavoidable.

Matt61

They are all done. I’m crashing on tomorrow’s blog, then I will search for the other articles and give you the links.

B.B.

I know I’m not the greatest searcher but I could not find the other articles. You have an area on the blog page called “Categories” and I expected to see a category on oiling with all those “future” articles there but there is no such category.

Do you plan to add an oiling category sometime? Could you?

-Chuck

Since you’re not busy……..

Earlier I was on the orginal PA website looking at the Beeman RX-2 Elite without a scope. PA also offers the RX-2 with a scope/package deal. When I clicked on the REVIEW/LATEST BUZZ/ARTICLE it took me to B.B.’s Part 1 instead of Part 3.

On the original PA site the Beeman RX-2 package deal links to Part 3. On the new PA site both the RX-2 with and without a scope link to Part 3. Here’s the one that links to Part 1:

http://wop.pyramydair.com/p/beeman-RX-2-air-rifle.shtml

Here’s the link to Part 3:

http://airgun-academy.pyramydair.com/blog/2011/12/beeman-rx-2-elite-series-combo-air-rifle-part-3/

kevin

It looks like you guys had more shade than Mac and I. I took no pictures at our shoot, but we had 12 competitors. mac and I shot a few points off the pace, so all we had was a fun time.

We were shooting .17HM2 rifles against silhouettes at different ranges. The guy who made all the rifles hosted the event.

I guess I will take the 68 apart, because I’m interested in seeing inside, too. It sure does shoot!

B.B.

Always store the gun with one pump of air in it. It shouldn’t be cocked for storage, but a pump of air will keep all the valves sealed against airborne contaminants. It should last for decades that way.

B.B.

No, the comments to reviews cannot be forwarded to the poster of the original review. It may be something they can do down the pike, but not at this time.

Regarding the refund of monies for a returned item…please email me at edith@pyramydair.com so we can discuss this offline. I’d like the following info from you in that email: your full name & RMA #.

Thanks,
Edith

If you take the 68 apart you will find the machining to be more like HW quality than what we normally expect from Gamo today. I hope you do a complete tune on it. I look forward to seeing your remaining blogs on the rifle.

David Enoch

That “not always” part has gotten to look like more of a “should be expected in spite of logic” thing to me.

twotalon

Wow! I hadn’t thought of that! I suppose that would pop up from time to time as a problem with one of these guns.

B.B.

Yes, you are. How the gun feels when shot reveals how it reacts to shooting each type of pellet. And I have found that accuracy usually goes hand-in-hand with the pellets that feel best in the powerplant, though not always.

B.B.

I never noticed it before, but yes, the trigger does wobble from side to side when the gun is not cocked.

B.B.

Something I have been meaning to ask about…
When I was testing my .22 R9 with a bunch of different pellets…

Most pellets gave the usual jump and some noticeable rearward recoil. There were two or three that gave mostly a very distinctive forward jump. So much to the point that is just about all I noticed. One or two kinds clearly made the power plant rough, while one kind seemed smooth enough.
Am I looking at the fine edge of piston slam here?

twotalon

Good to hear your results.

B.B.

Read this blog:

http://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2008/09/what-to-oil-part-1-guide-to-sealing.html

B.B.

Thanks for the review on this great gun. I own an RX-1 in .20 cal and a Beeman/Theoben Crow Mag III in .25 cal. Although I didn’t nearly have the same experience with the Crow Mag like you did. I’ve owned both rifles since 1997 and they shoot a little harder today than the day I bought them (my chronograph records show it). I remembered that I had the RX-1 gas changed back in the day by Beeman where they replaced it with some other inert gas to make it more efficient. I do remember very well that the cocking effort went down a bit (enough to notice right away) so the gun shoots smoother and a little faster. According to my old notes I was getting in the low 900fps with H&N Match pellets (11.87g) and energy was slightly higher than 21ft/lbs on avg. Not bad at all considering the cocking effort is nothing to me, especially compared to the Crow Mag I say that with a wink because I have no trouble cocking that beast, in fact when I take the Crow Mag out for a spin it’s usually for about 50-60 rounds. My Crow Mag does in fact get 33ft/lbs with the H&N Match with velocity into the 830’s but we all know how well that energy gets retained after 15 yds.
Anyways, I was responding to this thread to tell you about my experience with the JSB Exact King’s in .25 cal – they changed the way I feel about this caliber and I’ll be shooting it more often now since there’s finally a good pellet. The JSB’s were chrono’ing for me on avg @ 721fps (29.3ft/lbs) on the Crow Mag and the accuracy was staggering. I was able to make a single hole (5 shot) group at 20 yds.

Thanks again for this great write-up!

I registered at American Airguns, but found out that I couldn’t post a question about getting service, so I just deleted my account with them. Not sure what that’s all about. I’ve never been told that they weren’t taking registrations from any other site. And, actually, they allowed me to register, just not post anything. Curiouser and curiouser. Wade

I got a Honda generator for $20 two days ago, though. I think it just needs fresh gas and the tank’s not even rusty inside.

Here is the man who can overhaul your gun:

Rick Willnecker in PA. Contact him at http://www.airgunshop.net/ or call 717-382-1481.

You probably won’t find anyone local, as hundreds of service stations have closed their doors over th years. The man I sent you to has had all the vintage seals made and everyone buys them from him.

B.B.

I found H110 burns much cleaner than 2400 in a Carbine. Thnormal load is 15 grains, but I found 14.5 will work the action, yet be easy on the shells.

B.B.

Mike

I’d have to see that movie again, but I thought they downloaded a virus to the mother ship then nuked it from afar. Loved the scene with Will Smith dragging the alien across the desert, knocking it out and continuing on!

Really? That would be interesting to find out, because at 12 foot-pounds I would bet this rifle would be very pleasant to shoot.

B.B.

I used to own an Inland that was also a great shooter. I know how great a gun like that can make you feel!

If you handload for your gun, you might try my load of 14.5 grains of H-110 behind a 110-grain jacketed Carbine bullet. My S’G’ Carbine drops the empties either on the shooting bench or two feet in front and groups better than any other Carbine I’ve ever shot, when using this load. I weigh every load and I don’t have to clean the carbine for hundreds of rounds when using this load.

B.B.

Kevin gave the best answer to your concerns, but I would like to add something. Negotiating is an expression of social Darwinism, pure and simple. I want what you have and you want what I have — or one of us convinces the other that they want what we have so we can get what they have. It is life, undistilled.

My description of the tarantula dance was meant to be humorous, but it also touched a nerve in some folks, because it got too close to where they live. But as Kevin points out, all of life involves negotiation of some kind.

The lesson to take from this is not to try to avoid all negotiation, but to acknowledge that it exists everywhere and, by knowing that, to learn how you can navigate through life to your own best advantage.

Even personal relationships are a form of negotiation. Nothing is ever one-sided in life. And when a person realizes this simple yet vital truth, it can change the way they live their lives.

B.B.

The reason I hit that point so hard is that value is such a subjective thing. That was the point of the cat-and-dog discussion at the end of the article. If a thing really has no good value, or means of evaluating it — other than some subjective price guide that may by only one man’s opinion of what it is worth, it is better to open your mind and get the things you want, rather than to strive for the things that others say are “worth it.”

B.B.

I should have mentioned that trading for services is another part of this. Of course it can be done. I”ve done it many times. And for those who perform services, like woodwork, tuning and metal refinishing — it’s often how they get their start.

B.B.

Thank you. This is helpful. Shims I can handle.

Best,
Steven

Mike

Mike

Re: “The tarantula dance” aka negotiating

I’m going to try and change your perspective and eliminate your artificially created prejudice regarding negotiating.

You must realize that even in America our lives our filled with daily minor “negotiations” and frequently major negotiations. Dating/marriage is a daily negotiation. Non verbal exchanges are a type of negotiation. Most dialogue with teachers, secretaries, supervisors, etc. are minor negotiations. Litigation, mediation, divorce, re-zoning, code violations, traffic violations, leasing an apartment, buying a house, etc. are daily occurances in the lives of many Americans and I’d rate these as major negotiations.

Embrace the fact that you negotiate and learn to greet all these events as opportunities to hone your abilities in negotiating. Learn about body language. Perfect the art of dialogue by first realizing it’s not what you say but how you say it.

In your example of the interpretor in Hong Kong trying to aid your fellow tourist and watch buyer, the interpretor must share the blame since he did not put the offer in the proper context. Part of an interpretors job. Not what you say but how you say it. If the interpretor began his introduction of the offer by saying something like, “This gentleman does not wish to offend you with his offer, is not keenly aware of our customs and traditions but is very taken by your watch and humbly wonders if an offer of $1.00 would allow you to make a reasonable profit?”

You’re an educated man that obviously enjoys learning since you absorb information from so many sources. Rather than look at negotiating as an event that is undoubtedly going to be “hard on your nervous system” and rather than assume that “someone is going to use a strategy to screw you” look at all negotiations, big and small, as an opportunity to practice negotiating and perfecting your skillset.

Although negotiating is a common part of our lives in America negotiating is not embraced or is revered as a talent like it is in most other cultures. Most cultures outside of America place great importance and heap deep respect upon those with great negotiation skills. Cultures that are older than America.

Can’t help but make a martial arts analogy. When you first walk into a dojo, you also have the choice of worrying whether it’s going to be hard on your nervous system and someone will use a technique to physically screw you OR you can view it as a learning experience and embrace the experience. No one walks into a dojo for the first time as a black belt. They stay, learn, advance and grow into a black belt because of their mental commitment.

kevin

Mike, you’re undercutting my theory about the shortcomings of the AR-15. You say your rifle from 1975 is still working fine! What about the information I hear that the direct gas impingement system overheats the action and causes premature parts breakage and wear–not to mention that the bolt gets hot enough to fry steak on? (But I know that the AR-15 performs well on the shooting range.)

Must be nice to be able to burn through magazines of ammo at the fastest rate possible…

The ranges I’ve been to considered rapid-fire to be 10-20 rounds a minute (and rapid fire is not permitted <G> )

Burst mode in combat situations, OTOH…

{Reminds me — been a few years since I ensured the short stroke piston of my .30 M-1 carbine is free}

This is all too hard on the nervous system for me. I can’t rid myself of the idea that someone using a strategy on me is trying to screw me. I’m more in spirit with the Russian immigrant profiled in a film about Soviet emigres to America in the 80s who were trying to understand capitalism. Some guy set up a store, and then an American set up a competing store right next to him to take his business. The Russian said, “Well, then, I’ll just have to kill him”…. Of course I wouldn’t do that, but I’ll leave the bargaining to people who are more adept.

CowBoyStar Dad, I admire your boys for practicing the roll and shoot. I’ve thought of doing that myself but have not gotten around to it. But they had better watch the muzzle and make sure that they don’t shoot themselves. I particularly admire the Russian commandos for their creative ways of moving and shooting which includes a lot of rolling.

Mike, you’re undercutting my theory about the shortcomings of the AR-15. You say your rifle from 1975 is still working fine! What about the information I hear that the direct gas impingement system overheats the action and causes premature parts breakage and wear–not to mention that the bolt gets hot enough to fry steak on? (But I know that the AR-15 performs well on the shooting range.)

Only a few days until release of the Battleship movie! I can’t wait. I have a feeling this will be a good one. We’re always trying to reduce weapons in the world, but against aliens is a completely different story. In the film Independence, I loved it when the slipped a nuclear bomb into the mothership.

Matt61

The thing is, you could get something you don’t want that worth more and trade it for something else you don’t want thats worth more that you could sell, and use the money to get something the other party wants, and trade for something you want and still make a tidy profit.

Not always possible, in fact sometimes its very impossible, but overall the best way to go and the only way to trade anything, IMHO. And you can usually do better than you might think, if you stay sharp and keep your eyes open.

I guess its my scottish blood and engineering mind (read nickel-an-dime mind) that colors my opinion!

Fred DPRoNJ

You don’t mention trading for services… trading something for the refinish of a stock or a tune seems like a good idea to me. I have 2 rifles (Relum Telly and Slavia 618) that would need a little fixing but it would cost me more than what the rifles are worth but I don’t have the knowledge to fix them and the Relum has sentimental value and I’m not willing to risk damaging either of them, I’d rather keep them broken than to take the risk to damage them BUT I’d be willing to trade a rifle to have them fixed!

J-F

Older El Gamo triggers are much better than what they make today. That’s what many shooters don’t realize.

The way to move your trigger blade is with shims at its base, where the fulcrum pin passes through the trigger blade. That will probably require partial disassembly of the trigger, which is often not easy to work on, so consider that before you start.

B.B.

A real Carbine for $225? Suddenly it’s 1970 again!

That was a great deal.

B.B.

No, neither of us touched that gun. That was the way he bought it.

B.B.

Pete

Your review of the El Gamo 68 is interesting and timely. I am tickled to see that its mechanics and sights are identical to my lovely old El Gamo Expo, a birthday gift from my father some 35 years ago. It remains, after all these years, dead on accurate.

However, the trigger has always been a rather ponderous affair. The trigger is retained by a single spring and, from day one, it has tilted to the left, so that there is always a bit of reaching for it. I have tried releasing the spring and gently bending it over, but this does not work. There is some lateral drift to the trigger, so I can gently pull it closer to center before squeezing, for a more comfortable and precise release.

Can you recommend a solution, or direct me to a shop that can resolve this once and for all? I am not averse to purchasing a new trigger assembly, if that is an option. It may be a good time to have it serviced, since this has never been done.

Your intelligence on this will be greatly appreciated.

Thank you, Steven

I had a three way deal a few years ago at a gun show. The “Guy for the Street” has a really nice M-1 Carbine. The “Dealer’s Friend” has a old military 1893 Mauser and a Chinese SKS that the “Guy from the Street” wants. The “Dealer’s Friend” wants cash, no trades and won’t take the M-1 Carbine (Not very smart). I ask, “Can I look at your M-1 ?” I look and ask, “How much do you want for it ?” “Guy from the Street” says “Enough to buy those two guns”. I ask the “Dealer’s Friend”, “How much for the Mauser and the SKS ?” He says, “$225.00″ So, I give “Guy from the Street” $225.00, he gives me the M-1 Carbine and gives the “Dealer’s Friend” the $225.00 and takes the Mauser and the SKS. Everyone was happy! Especially me!

Mike

–pz

Have a good weekend and enjoy the competition tomorrow.

Fred DPRoNJ

I have a GRT-III on the Gamo, but haven’t been able to detect the stage transition yet for adjustment. Since mine is the limited edition NRA 1000 Special, I don’t consider it in the normal rotation for shooting.

There is a zen trick for that. If you really want it, you need to convince yourself that you can also live without it. In other words, you have to be willing to let it “get away.”

One way to do that is to help other people get some things you really want sometime. In other words, tell someone else about a thing you really want, then help them get it. I know that sounds crazy, but the more you do it, the more you can live when a deal goes bad.

Mac told me years ago that the deal of a lifetime comes around about every 18 months or so. I’ve found that’s about right.

B.B.

That is the right way to do it. There must have been some 124s that had 8 grooves, because two other people have reported the same thing.

B.B.

Sadly, I never made it to alpha competitor. That might have helped me with some dealings I must engage in with the insurance company and multiple service providers. Even so, I believe what you have written is worth going over at least a couple of times.

No airgun shooting today, but this evening we will see the Houston Ballet perform Giselle, in The Woodlands. We will enjoy it from the mezzanine seating, which is free. I do appreciate the fact that someone has made this possible.

Have a great weekend,
Ken

Great article! Airgun deals are really like that – tarantula dance, at least in my experience. Well, the only trickier situation is, I suppose, trading airguns with girls, as there’s a possibility of female mantis vs. male mantis scenario

duskwight

I’ve never done very well in a trade if I really wanted what I was trading for. Only if it’s something I didn’t really care about at the time did I do well. Guess I’m too afraid of letting it “get away” for my own good. I’ll have to work on that…

/Dave

That’s the spirit that makes it all work out right!

B.B.

I find that a little time makes me feel even better about trades like that. Even if I don’t come out dollar for dollar monetarily I traded something I was willing to part with and got something new to try. That has value in itself. But, I usually come out well monetarily too. The secret to the whole deal is to buy only at the right price to begin with. That makes it easier from then on, whether you keep it or trade it later.

David Enoch

I live in Texas and the Pawn Stars are in Las Vegas, so no, I don’t hang out with that old man.

B.B.

How are you counting the grooves?

B.B.

I don’t think any of them read this blog. The old man does sometimes, but it’s hit-or-miss.

B.B.

That was a three-way for sure!

Tomorrow Mac and I will be at Valley Mills, shooting .17HM2s in a competition just for the owners of custom rifles made by another friend of ours. There will be prizes for winning, a barbeque and even a small swap meet. I will think of you — but not too much!

B.B.

A replacement recoil pad for an FWB 300S will be a used part, or you might consider mounting a Morgan or Wegu adjustable pad to the gun. Those could both be purchased new and both adjust up and down like the original FWB pads.

B.B.

I don’t have any way of finding out when El Gamo guns were made. Sorry!

B.B.

I wonder if Sharp Trader, the Big Guy and the Old Man will read this blog today. Should/could be interesting.

Fred DPRoNJ

I guess I misspoke. The H&Ns got hung up on the lip of the single-shot trough.

B.B.

We are going to miss you tomorrow while we are shooting at Ron Bradfords. Greg called last night and he is driving up tonight and is going to shoot with us tomorrow.

David Enoch

Until I went into business myself I never realized how little textbook type competition there is in the business world. It’s very cooperative, in the sense that animals cooperate at an African water hole. In Nature there’s hardly ever excess killing, it’s more like “a lion’s gotta eat”.

On advantage for the tarantula — they’re so near-sighted that if something knocks them apart by a few feet they may never find each other again to resume the tarantella…

Lucky for me, it eats Wolf (at 24 cents/round) just fine.

I have had very good results using the H&N Baracuda pellets. My next pellet order from PA, I’m going to try the Field Target pellets, too.

On another topic, do you have any suggestions where would I go to get a replacement recoil pad for an FWB 300S?

Fred DPRoNJ

BTW, a new Colt AR-15 could be had for about $240.00 in 1975.

Mike

Thanks.

We just looked at the video.

The video is showing you how to properly hold and shoot the pistol.

If you look at the way a lot of people hold a handgun, they don’t use the pad of their finger to squeeze the trigger. They wrap their index finger around it so that the pad of their finger sticks way out on the other side of the triggerguard. That’s because they have an improper hold on the gun. If you have a proper hold on your gun, only the pad of your finger will touch the trigger.

The purpose of the article & video was to show you from all angles how your hand will look when properly holding the gun. If he took his finger off the trigger, how would he be able to show you the proper way to hold the gun for shooting it?

Edith

My .177 Marauder magazines all have two-ish “tight” chambers. I used to go to the trouble of poking the pellets in when loading, but eventually I realized that I didn’t need to. Even though the pellets don’t drop completely into those chambers much of the time, they’re still deep enough that they don’t interfere with the clear plastic cover. I don’t think I’ve ever tested whether the tight chambers cause more inconsistency than the others.

-Jan

I can see that happening to me.

B.B.

To the point where I recently bought a Chiappa .22LR upper for it… and I’m buying a 2nd lower… and so on…

Then I read the label on the back of the trap: 750fps .22 Read? We don need to stinkin read!

My .177’s never even reached the metal backing as far as I can tell.

-Chuck

I think I probably will report on any firearm upper I get, because it plays into the story.

B.B.

No the H&N Field Target pellets fed okay through the mag, but since we tested it with the Falcons single-shot we felt we had to test it in the mag the same way.

B.B.

What said anything about a smooth twist? This has a fully rifled Lothar Walther barrel.

B.B.

Matt61

Matt61

Matt61

I’m yet another guy who is not a big fan of the black-rifle aesthetic, but still, this upper is almost enough to tempt me into an AR! I am neither a 10m shooter nor a service rifle competitor, but I have another possible application for the MAR177: tricking my kids into more shooting with Dad! My eight-year-old saw one of the earlier posts in this series over my shoulder, and right away said “That looks cool. You should get one of those!”

As things stand now, I’ve inadvertently stumbled on a new firearms safety program for my children: give them near-unlimited access to supervised range time, and they lose all interest in the prospect. My kids are reasonably well trained in firearms safety and shooting (thanks in large part to B.B.’s articles on the subject!), but they are also militantly uninterested in guns and shooting! Sigh.

PS, B.B., did you wind up having feed problems with the H&N Field Target pellets in both the magazine and the single-shot tray?

Thanks,
Jan