But I can go you better than Larry Csonka. While working at a nursing home in Illinois, I came across a resident who ran a cafeteria that served none other than Red Grange himself, The Galloping Ghost. Naturally, I was eager to hear all about him. But she just said that he was a husky guy, not very big, and that he didn’t say a lot.

There was another resident who was a cook in the army in WWI! He was 101 years old when I met him and another great instance of living history. But as in the other instance, I was sort of dropped at the threshold of treasures. He extolled the virtues of army beans, but when I asked him what was so great about them, he got kind of unprintable and vague, although still complimentary. Then, he shifted to describing his post-war years in the South where he did quite a bit of hunting. I asked him about that, and it appeared that raccoons were his favorite prey. His method apparently was to let his dogs chase the raccoon into a tree–hence the saying, “tree’d like a coon.” Then, our resident imitated the call of the dogs to signal their catch. Ooooooo. Ooooooo. That was pretty much the end of the story and where I left our resident.

Anyone see the story about the new smart rifle being sold by a Texas company for $22,000? We may be dinosaurs with all of our lore of shooting technique. The smart feature is some very sophisticated ballistic calculator plugged into the scope that can compensate for all sorts of variables. That’s a familiar route, but what really sets this apart is the trigger which will only release when there is a very high probability of taking a good shot. But the problem for me is how the shooter is supposed to know just when this is. Without him knowing this, the trigger does no good unless you are supposed to keep it depressed all the time. And nothing about the rifle seems to account for follow through and position and the other things that go into a good shot.

In other news, I may have found a new recruit for airgunning. A friend of mine said that a mouse invaded his home and drove his wife to distraction. They finally got it with glue paper. I didn’t suppose they discarded the trap with the mouse alive, so I asked how the execution was performed. With a brick. Ugh. Airguns all the way.

BG_Farmer, your concerns about the old blog are exactly those that I wrote about for my library book (which is supposed to come out in the fall). The price of all this electronic information dumped conveniently in your lap is lack of permanence. Since this technology is provided by companies who work for profit (unlike your benevolent library), they can and will pull the plug whenever it’s in their interest to do so. Thus what looks like an increase in information may actually be an impoverishment on a larger scale as records are permanently lost. So, don’t count out your library.

In fact, why not support your library in the following way. I’m hoping to come on strong with the final project in my GIS class and, like an Assyrian king, trample on my foes like a wild bull (so they say in their engravings). What I hope to do is map the micro-environments necessary to Giant Sequoias which can only grow in small pockets where things are just right. Anyone knowing anything about this, please fill me in. It’s way off topic, but I wouldn’t put it past you all…

Matt61

The gun thing is nothing more than an ability I have always had to see how things work and how to put things together. That same ability helps me to be good with a gun. That plus I learned to shoot at a young age and I have rarely been away from behind a gun ever since. My wife hated that but it was simply impossible to keep me from getting some target practice even if it was with a cheap crosman 1077. But she would not let me keep things like my AK-47 which she destroyed. My airguns were my one guilty pleasure. Now that I am free of her my airgun collecting knows no bounds. In fact I’ve also managed to put together a nice collection of powder burners, but airguns remain my main thing.

I was hit by a car in the first grade. Totally my fault. I got it into my head that the cars were like bulls that I could dodge like a matador, breaking from cover and darting across the street just in time. It just took one guy breaking the speed limit. What I remember was the most incredible sense of impact before I went flying through the air. The force was incomprehensible. It was my moment in the NFL. But I just got a broken collar bone out of it.

Matt61

In roaming around YouTube, I find myself going back in time to listen to music, really no later than the 80s. The stuff today is truly abominable as far as I’m concerned, visually and musically. The current generation’s allotment of talent must be hiding.

Matt61

Matt61

Matt61

I think I recall your comments or posts about the Taurus 1911. I recall that you found it to be a good value.

I have a friend who is interested in one and remembered my comments to him about your impressions. I would like to send him a link to that discussion but I cannot find it.

Any help appreciated,
Mark N

http://www.magnetospeed.com/pages/tech-info

Presuming they are using technology similar to metal detectors, but scaled down to fit a pair of detectors on the one rod, they should work with pure lead pellets too.

The desert pubic lands are so awesome! And there is always something interesting to shoot at.

It is a cliche’ about the desert cartoon with the cattle skull. But you really do find things like that.

One time I found, miles from anywhere, a bowling pin someone had used for a target.

Once I found a small stone knife made of flint. It was still sharp.

Les

David Enoch

I have no explanation for your apparent out and in arc (unless the scope reticle isn’t truly aligned horizontal/vertical — in which case a purely vertical movement will appear to traverse sideways too).

Bernoulli effects of a cross wind on the spinning pellet should be a consistent drift to one side (and since a pellet is technically “falling” throughout the trajectory, there is an “up draft” equivalent to the 1G — or 32 fps [or is it 16fps as the pellet started at 0fps down, and would end at 32fps down after the second, making a 16fps average]).

Precession would cause the pellet attitude to yaw in a spiral. Air drag tries to point the pellet in the direction of flight — for simplicity assume a simple / to midpoint, and \ to target. The gyroscopic forces from rifling spin are aligned during the initial / stage, but as the trajectory transitions to \ stage, the spin wants to keep the pellet angled /, but air drag wants to rotate it \. If you’ve ever played with a gyroscope, you know that pushing the top in one direction results in the gyroscope moving to the side. The pellet will do the same as it “tilts over” in the trajectory — the nose will move to the side instead of down… But now air drag will want to turn the pellet in, and precession will make it point downwards (air drag will try to point it upwards, precession turns it to the other side, etc.). At extreme ranges, the pellet is likely to keyhole as precession overpowers the reduction in velocity.

Please email me so I can send you the guest blog info: edith@pyramydair.com.

Thanks,
Edith

If you wanna know what slightly more modern “Walther” can do, shoot .177 Hämmerli AR20 with 16 joule regulator version. I say “Walther” because Hämmerli and Walther are owned by Umarex and they share designs / tech inside the main company.

AR20 is (here in Europe) available for price of 600 pounds / 730 euros and it compares in accuracy with 1600 euros Steyer. For that 700+ euros price, you can not get more accurate gun for “50 meters or less” range.

And for guy commenting about Walther being inaccurate; that is just strange comment. Walther 10m race guns are right there with Feinwerbau, Steyer etc. No difference in accuracy at all.

Correction, I did take several air-rifles on a trip to Laughlin. Across the river in Bullhead City, there are public lands that people use to plink. From the debris, I can tell that most people take firearms, but I’ve never actually seen anyone out there shooting. So again, I had the whole desert all to myself.

Here’s something that some of you may not have considered. Buy the packets with small target bulls, like the red and black ones that are between a inch to maybe 3 inches. When driving through the desert, I find lots of boards and other objects that you can past these smaller targets on. Sometimes all you need are a few rock to hold up the boards. Very convenient.

Victor

Write it up in some simple text program — not a word processor.

Edith,

Can we please send John the Guest Blogger’s info?

B.B.

Why not? I could show off “The Magnificent Marvelous Mad Madam Mim”. I’ll get back with you on that a bit later and see what I can come up with.

How about a guest blog?

B.B.

The Destroyers do seem pretty good, but I’ve not tested them a lot. They look REALLY COOL, though, and sometimes, that is all that is needed, esp. at the price .

Basically, (besides pellet model and velocity) you define the “kill zone” — that is the amount of divergence from line of sight that you will accept. If your target (the idea is a hunting capability) has a 1″ diameter vital zone, the pellet can be up to half an inch above or below the line of sight and still hit this zone.

You then tweak the zero distance so that the trajectory kisses the top of the zone, and the program will report the nearfar ranges where the trajectory is at the bottom of the zone. In theory, aiming dead center should result in a kill anywhere in that “point blank range”.

What Chairgun can not do, however, is compensate for a gun/pellet combination that just isn’t accurate. And you do have to consider the terminal energy if hunting. Having a really high-mounted scope tends to result in long zero ranges as the pellet has to “rise” so far to intersect the line of sight. But if the gun isn’t the most powerful, this line of sight PBR optimization may result in not enough energy for a kill. You may then have to give up PBR variability for a mere 5yard range (say 18-23 yards) and realize that anything closer or further away will required adjustments on the point of aim (hold higher for close shots, and lower for longer shots — if the 20 yard zero is on the ascending phase).

For the price, you can’t beat Crosman Destroyers. They aren’t the best on any of my rifles, but they are far from being the worse. They truly are “good enough” in every sense of the word. If I want to shoot the best groups possible with a particular gun, I won’t use them. But if I want to shoot well, then they usually don’t disappoint. They have been among the most consistent pellet across my air-rifles. And again, for the price you just can’t beat them.

Victor

Music is such an enjoyable and powerful element of my life. I must say that throughout high school, shooting occupied my mind and time like nothing else. I don’t have much in the way of memories, or interest, that could be derived from my high school itself.

Victor

Actually, I can envision Jurgen Prochnow, the skipper in das Boot, standing up behind the officers’ mess table and picking off a piece of lint on the political officer’s collar from seven feet with a Tell model II — now THAT would be impressive!

Michael

Take an errant shot with a Walther or Luger, and that could ruin the whole voyage completely!

Michael

You just provided me with a goal. What you want is a small, lightweight, inexpensive and accurate plinking spring gun. Is that right?

The Diana 27 is all of those things except inexpensive, and as long as we are at it, why does it need to be as large as it is?

People sometimes ask me where I get all my ideas. This is where.

Thanks,

B.B.

David Enoch

Thank you for that input. You helped me, as well as Vasco.

B.B.

I’ve had great luck with the 2 piece Leapers Accushot rings. A pain to mount with all of the screws, but they don’t move even on my Izh 513m .22 which is a 17-19 ft/lbs magnum springer, very light and therefore kicks very hard! Plus, they’re cheap!

/Dave

I can tell you that (Sharp) Tiger is based from Sharp Innova platform. The notable differences is alum receiver (ABS on Innova) and trigger mechanism.

Like Innova, more pumps means heavier trigger pull. But mostly you’ll only need 3-5 pumps (450-600 fps with 8.3gr superdome if memory serves me right) for all your purpose and at that pumps, trigger pull is not really that heavy.

It’s recoiless due to dump valve system, very easy to maintain with common o-ring set, scopable, lightweight, and quiet even without moderator. Barrel replacement a bit tricky but doable with torch and super glue.

It is very popular rifle in my country. Accuracy is superb, but a lemon barrel is not uncommon though. From about 10 rifles I’ve handled personally (friend’s and mine), 2 of them got the barrel replaced.

I’d say you can expect one ragged, ciggarette butt size hole group at 20m with good scope, bench rested. At least that’s my informal lemon-a-meter.

Crosman Destroyers are available at my local wally-world and they shoot pretty well in several of my .177’s.

What’s a “vacation”? Some sort of ancient ritual that better men from better times practiced?

/Dave

You have a lot of questions about scope rings.

Alignment is better than you think and never perfect. The cost of the rings doesn’t matter. I have seen $500 rings that didn’t line up, and, yes, they do exist. Edith has also seen them. A guy who used to shoot field target with us had them. His scope was mounted five inches above the bore, on riser blocks that came with the mounts.

Leapers $10 rings line up as well as the best of them.

One-piece rings are extremely inflexible when it comes to scope positioning. I avoid them most of the time.

Funny you should mention the R9 spring tube, because I once crushed one with a set of BKL scope mounts. Those were the old BKL company, not the same one that makes BKL mounts today. The R9 tube is so thin that when I tightened the base clamps, I could feel the mainspring forcing its way past the scope tube where the clamps pinched it too tight. When the mounts were removed, everything returned to normal.

The holes in the R9 tube should hold, but it’s probably best if you use mounts that have wide base pins rather than narrow ones. The former B-Square rings (that used to be made in America) and Sportsmatch rings are the best for this.

The height of the scope over the rifle has zero influence of the rifle’s potential accuracy. It can affect cant, so if you use high mounts, consider that.

B.B.

As usual, you are right in the groove. I even recommended the Diana 27.

B.B.

You missed my report.

http://airgun-academy.pyramydair.com/blog/2013/02/p-08-bb-pistol-from-umarex-part-3/

B.B.

You asked if I know anything. I know a lot, so here goes. Sharp used to be a wonderful multi-pump, when it was made is Japan. But then the company moved to Indonesia and the quality went out the window. I have owned both Japanese and Indonesian Sharps.

The Indonesian guns have barrels with spotty accuracy. One will be good and the next will not. That is Asian quality control at work. The Japanese won’t build them that way, but every other Asian country will, and that includes Korea, who make the second-best Asian guns.

The Asians have access to the best hardwoods in the world. They make the stocks for most of the finest UK airguns, so the look of this gun doesn’t surprise me.

You may get a good one or you may not. It is always a gamble.

B.B.

You also better worry about if the rifle is a drooper too. I went through fits with one of my R9s to get droop, mount movement, and scope movement in the mount fixed.

twotalon

We go to Cuchara, Colorado every summer for a week and stay in a house that is up at 10,000 feet. I take airguns with me there. What works best for me up there are C02 rifles and springer or C02 pistols. I take rifles such as QB78s and Crosman 180s and pistols such as my BSA Scorpion, Tempest, or a Crosman Mark 1. I take a couple 24 count boxes of C02, pellets, simple tools, my tripod rest, a range finder, and spinner targets.

David Enoch

As for me I will likely take something like a couple of my favorite action pistols and probably my 1077. In other words “Fun Guns”.

Speaking of action pistols. In one of your reports from this years Shot Show you seemed to show some enthusiasm over the new Umarex P.08. Have you had a chance to look at this gun now that it’s available?

Do you know anything about this (Sharp Tiger Multi-pump pneumatic) air rifle: http://www.bidorbuy.co.za/item/99590946/Sharp_Tiger_Pump_Air_Gun_Mahogany_4_5mm_Includes_Silencer_Free_Pellets.html
It looks quite handsome with the mahogany stock and costs the equivalent of about $190 here in South Africa. Other rifles in this price class include the Norica Dragon, Gamo CFX & Socom 1000, Hasan Striker and the Webley & Scott Value Max; just to put the price into perspective for you US guys.

Regards.

That song, and my yearbook, were the inspiration.

B.B.

Thanks for the heads up on these. I will try them out!

B.B.

I almost included the story of the WW II submarine captain who had a Haenel Model 100 pistol in his cabin. What did he have — 10 feet? It never ceases to amaze me what a dedicated airgunner will do!

B.B.

Thank you for that feedback. You are exactly describing the situation I was talking about, and you have wonderful guns with you. If it helps, I was never any good with an LP 53, either.

B.B.

Edith said my intro made her think the same thing. No, I’m sticking around. That was a lame attempt at humor.

I’ll try to be more considerate in the future, which I plan on spending with all of you.

B.B.

It’s stranger than that! When I moved to Aurora and met Edith, we went to the same church as Craig. Used to see him in our pew on Sunday after a game. He always moved slowly, because I guess he was hurting a lot.

B.B.

First, you need to read the entire test. If you haven’t yet, here is the final part, with links to all the earlier parts:

http://airgun-academy.pyramydair.com/blog/2012/12/hatsan-model-25-supercharger-breakbarrel-air-pistol-part-3/

NCStar scopes are known to be the cheapest scopes around. They probably work okay on .22 rimfires, but of any scope is going to fail of a recoiling air pistol, that would be the most likely. That’s why they are so cheap.

This pistol generates about 7 foot-pounds of energy at the muzzle. So the range will be quite limited for pests of any size, like squirrels. Twenty yards would be the max, because the pistol isn’t that accurate, plus the power would be too low. Why not use the open sights, since you aren’t going to shoot it that far anyway?

B.B.

I picked up 4 tins of these $5.25 for 500 pellets on my last PA order, but haven’t yet had the opportunity to try them out.

Now if I really want to get away some, I go to my friend’s cabin up on the mountain. It is less than an hour away and I can pack a lot of gear in my fourwheeldrivesportscarwithabigtrunkintheback.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgCt-F22Ex0

Victor

Vacation is a concept that is vaguely familiar, but somewhat elusive to my memory. I know I took part in the ritual at one time or another, but it has been a long while. Expendable income has been in short supply as of late.

I can really appreciate this one. I grew up shooting airguns on vacation at the lake (Table Rock). I still vacation at the same resort and always take a few airguns of course. The range is short so we only use lower powered guns. Plus there are neighbors who might not see the fun in an Condor at 12 yards!

Back in the day we had Dad’s LP53 and a Daisy 717 which we got at the factory not too far from the lake. I would add the 717 to the list of unbelievably accurate and enjoyable short range airguns. I never could shoot the Walther well. Maybe hit the lake from the shore:) I still have both airguns and wonderful memories of shooting them with Dad and our guests at the lake.

This year I plan on taking the Winchester 425 I picked up in Roanoke last year. You know the one. I don’t like to shoot it much because it is so nice and unused but the vacation is it’s perfect place.

Last year I took my 1701P. It got lots of attention but the pump DID take up a lot of precious space. I can only take so many airguns so the added baggage (literally) of the pump does matter.

I always take my P17 and usually an R7. My girlfriend brings her Bronco. I guess I have been hanging around here a while.

Nice subject,
Mark N

Speaking of discount pellets, the Crosman Field Points (come in milk cartons containing ~1250 pellets from PA) are good for plinking in the P17, and, more importantly, they load very easily, which is appreciated as my fingers are too big and stiff to do much fancy work in the space the P17 allots for loading. I think the P17 is one of the best deal in airguns, at home or away.

I like the idea of testing “cheap” pellets against the gold standards. Some of the cheap ones shoot pretty well in certain applications, and the way prices are getting these days, no need to throw more money at a problem than it requires. Maybe shoot both types of pellets out of a modest air rifle and/or pistol, then do the same for something higher priced and known accurate, to see if the pellet or the platform makes more difference. Should be interesting.

ps-had no idea bb knew craig morton. he was a bronco hero in colorado in the 70’s. big, big deal. he even had a good steak restaurant unlike many sports stars that have opened restaurants. last i heard he was back in california. lost track of him.

kevin

As an example, using some data from my Condor (not that I can hold it that well):
21.1gr (.22 cal) H&N Baracuda Match
Power Adjust at 6-0, giving a velocity ~995fps

Chairgun shows a 55 yard (descending) zero produces a (ascending) zero at 27 yards AND the +/- 0.5″ range is 20.2 to 61.0 yards (what the program calls “point blank range” as the pellet is within 0.5″ of the line of sight throughout that range).

Setting the zero at the trajectory peak gives a range of 23.4 to 53.1 yards, with the pellet never rising above the line of sight.

Reducing the “kill zone” from 1″ (+/- 0.5) to 0.5″ brings the descending zero down to 50 yards, point blank range is 25.0 to 54.3 yards and ascending zero is at 30 yards.

Changing the zero distance to 20 yards with the 1″ zone produces results in a range of just 16.0 to 24.7 AND 67.1 to 74.9 yards — the trajectory peak between those zones ends up a whole 1.5″ above the line of sight.

NOTE: the high scope position relative to the barrel means short zeros arc significantly. Don’t pick a Condor (or even a Talon) for short range work unless you really want ONLY short range

The fact that it is easier to shoot one gun for you verses another is usually a case of hold sensitivity to the way you hold the rifle. And, since each of us are different, a gun that is hold sensitive for one person may not be as hold sensitive for someone else.

David Enoch

David Enoch

One other thing. The comments generate hits in google. This helps people to find the blog.

Don’t let BB fool you. He always uses that dime because it is an oversized novelty dime. It is about the size of a dinner plate. That old BB, he is a sly one.

It’s way off in the future. It’s not even a blip on the radar screen. Astronomically speaking, it’s lightyears away. I was told not to even think or worry about this because it’s so far in the future. We will definitely save every last blog on the old Blogger site. I don’t believe Blogger is doing anything to make us change, so there’s no real timeline we’re being forced to adhere to. While the comments are supposedly not going to be transferred, I believe nothing is engraved in stone. Stuff happens, changes occur, software gets developed and we’ll live happily ever after. The end

Edith

The blog articles themselves are wonderful, but the comments are often quite illuminating and it would be a shame to lose them! Also, while most of us have learned to live with the WordPress format, there is something magical about the Blogger days, even if it is just because where/when so many of us became friends.

B.B.’s answers never supersede mine

Edith

Feel free to nuke any embarrassing comments of mine from the old feeds, though

-Jan

Your Hatsan is a fine airgun. Equal to the one I’m testing in every way, and ahead in cost. Enjoy it.

B.B.

The content will be saved (I hope). All the comments will vanish.

B.B.

Thanks! That’s a surprisingly good rifle, and B.B.’s review demonstrated this. Earlier this week someone had questions about this rifle, so I wanted to give them the link, but I couldn’t find it.

Thanks again,
Victor

Sticky bolts drive me nuts and I went all the way across the country to South Carolina to find a gunsmith who could smooth out my SMLE bolt. It is unintuitive to me that a mechanism like a rifle bolt should be worked harder than not given the extra friction and wear and tear, but that seems to be true. My SMLE will jam when worked slowly with snap caps but work perfectly at high speed.

Matt61

Matt61

The Beretta 92FS would be a good choice, but6 it won’t keep up with a 1911 in .45 ACP. I would expect about 1.5 inches at 10 meters.

The absolute best would be a Crosman 600, which has a better trigger than most firearms and will keep them all on a very tight shop at 10 meters. Another good one is the FWB 55CM, though the Aeron B96, which is five-shot and costs less than $600 new is nearly as good for a fraction of the price.

The Desert Eagle Magnum is a great gun, but the grip is a little large for most people. But it is accurate enough and has a nice trigger. I would think it could get 1-inch groups at 10 meters.

B.B.

Matt61

Edith

The 3-part review of that gun has not disappeared. Here it is:
http://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2008/06/ruger-air-hawk-elite-part-3.html

Edith

So that explains why I couldn’t find B.B.’s review of the Ruger Air Hawk Elite! I believe that I was able to find it last time by going to the PA products page for this rifle. Is PA also planning on reestablishing the links for each gun sold by PA that was reviewed in the older blog?

Victor

I am looking for a repeating pistol suitable for Bullseye timed/rapid fire practice. I currently use a modded 2240 for slow fire — my slow fire actual fire is now better than my timed/rapid. With the cost and availability of .22lr, I am looking for something to fill the need for timed/rapid. So far, I have been able to identify these: Walther CP88 and variants, Beretta 92FS, and the 1911. I think Daisey may have an option, but the price is so much lower I wonder about it.

My critera include having a good trigger and comparable accuracy to at least a 1911. I plan to shoot at 10M for the most part (as I do mostly now with the modded 2240 although it is pretty good at 25yds, too).

What would your recommendation be?

Best,

Joe
Maryland

The old blog on Blogger software will go away but the blogs will not. We’ve already transferred some to this site, and the rest will also be transferred. This will take some time before it’s done.

Edith

Just like throwing an entire set of one of a kind airgun encyclopedia’s into a bonfire.

There must be a way to transfer these old blogs and comments to a new host. What about it you technophiles?

kevin

Pyramyd Air isn’t abandoning the old blog. Blogger — the Google software — is abandoning us!

Edith, please explain to the readers why we are soon going to lose the old blog.

B.B.

Reference material doesn’t go out of date.

BB, if there is someone at Pyramyd we should write to please let us know.

David Enoch

Such a wealth of great airgun information. Surprised that PA doesn’t realize the value of keeping the old blog plugged in since many airgunners find their way to this current site and to the PA retail website because of the old blog.

kevin

15 yards is too close. Then you get a huge rise in the pellet at 20-25 yards. If you zero at 20 the rise isn’t so high and the pellet is back on the crosshairs at 27-35 yards, depending on velocity.

B.B.

Mike

Michael

It does seem absurd to have to go through all of those legal hoops just to purchase an air pistol.

But I’ve thought a lot about your comment that the Gamo P-25 is basically just a BB gun. At first I nodded my head and agreed, but after thinking about it, I have to respectfully disagree.

This Gamo P-25, along with the Gamo PT-85, the Umarex / Beretta PX4, and the Umarex Desert Eagle are, as far as I know, the only pellet (not BB) pistols that have rifled barrels and true (not simulated) blowback. That’s it. Four airguns, three of which share the same internals.

The Desert Eagle is VERY accurate out to at least 10 meters. No BB gun can match it at that distance. If the Gamo P-25 is almost as accurate, that would be a big deal to some, because it and its two “siblings” cost roughly half as much as the Desert Eagle, and they can provide you with 16 shots before reloading instead of the Desert Eagle’s eight.

Michael

Thanks for the information,

David Enoch

David Enoch

The sear just gets out of the way.

Those grooves on the striker bushings might be why you get those occasional slow shots. If the striker vibrates as it moves, it won’t move fast enough to open the open the valve. This is why it’s so bad when people modify the gun. If the grooves are there from wear, then something inside the frame is rough.

B.B.

I always zero an air rifle at 20 yards. That is the best range I have found.

This rifle was not really zeroed. It was just adjusted to get the shots on paper. I would never intentionally hit the center of the hull, as that removes the aim pint.

So the fact that the shots landed there is just a coincidence.

B.B.

Why the silver dime? It’s a very special dime. Read all about it here:

http://airgun-academy.pyramydair.com/blog/2012/04/the-dimes-story/

B.B.

In essence, that is exactly what is happening.

B.B.

Yes, I will piut it next to some common guns for perspective.

B.B.

I have an AirForce question for you. When you pull the trigger on an older Condor, is the part of the sear that sticks up into the frame in front of the hammer pulled down by the trigger mechanism, or is it just unlocked so that the hammer can push it down and slide over it? On the Condor I bought at Malvern, when I shot a shot string from full fill down to do low velocities I was occasionally getting very low velocity shots. I took the gun apart and the only thing I noticed was that there were small grooves in the plastic bushings on the ends of the hammer. The trigger has been modified to a very nice trigger pull but that had involved removing the safety and I don’t know what else was done to it. When the trigger is pulled the sear doesn’t drop out of the tube but you can push it down easily. I am just trying to figure out what is causing the low power shots. To me, it seems to be hammer related.

Thanks,

David Enoch

Victor

J-F

. It was the gas flowing from the cartridge into the gun’s valve, where it would be used for the next shot.

Trying to reproduce the AirForce Micro-Meter tank in CO2?

J-F,

Whenever a CO2 gun leaves me cold, I find that I have not been waiting long enough between shots, er, eh, um, never mind.

Michael

Wilco!

B.B.

If you include a photograph of another air pistol with the Gamo P-25 to illustrate it’s size which you please add a 911 A1 so those of us that are not very familiar with the air pistols can have a know reference point. Thanks

Bruce

Matt61

One other thing…
Low velocity and light pellets causes a LOT of wind drift. I have the option of switching to something heavier and faster when conditions warrant. I reserve the T200 for relatively close range plinking and starling busting in low wind level conditions.

twotalon

I saw the vid, but I have no idea how the mag advances. Nothing in the reciever of the T200 to do it.

The nasty original barrel was choked so hard that a BB did not make it all the way through the choke. THAT’S TIGHT.
I have gotton some bad barrels on other rifles too, even HWs. Luck of the draw.

Keep in mind if you want to plug starlings from time to time…below 500 fps it gets a bit thin on power. Found that out with the 853.

twotalon

The LGV always had a synthetic piston seal. At first it was a light brown material that dry-rotted — just like the Diana recoilless seals and the FWB 124/127 seals. But later they formulated a blue synthetic that lasts forever — like the modern Diana seals.

There is no counter-recolling piston. The gun uses weight and low power to dampen the recoil.

B.B.

If you watch the vid posted by SL they show how the mag is installed, it seems quite clever.

Hmmm the more I read of how you like it, the more I’m interested in the rifle… thanks for the input!

J-F

Camera audio automatic recording levels can be deceptive. Always keep that in mind.

Keeping the T200 below 500 fps makes it pretty quiet. Pulling it up to the mid 500s makes it sound a lot like an 853 with a sharp little snap. Not much louder in the mid 600s. Cranking it up much more loses the snap and gets more into a loud bark.
You would probably not have the adjustability on the Canadian model.

I’ll be darned if I can figure out how the 10 shot mag would work on the T200. I pulled out the single shot tray and found nothing but solid metal there.

It is a bit of a pain to load by hand. Not much room.

60 shots or better with the power kept down. Mine has a guage on it.

I like the feel, weight, and balance. The tank is easy to fill.

It’s a bit rough at first on the trigger and cocking , but gets smoothed out fairly quickly.

Only complaints that I have with the way mine came were…
Could have had a better selection of sight inserts, and the barrel was horrible. They used some really snaggletoothed tools on the bore. Now has a choked LW cut to the same length as original.

twotalon

J-F

I am going to move to a thicker part of the thread.

twotalon

J-F

There is nothing currently being made that suits your requirement (that I know of).

B.B.

I just walked into Tom’s office and asked to hold the gun. It’s a brick! I could hardly believe how big it is. It has a very large grip (which I prefer), but it’s absolutely not petite. I think they must have styled it to look sleek because it’s so large.

Edith

/Dave

1+1=2 ! Woo hoo! Math I can do!!

It always helps when you can attatch some requirements when you are looking for a gun. That way you have a better chance of getting what you really want and need.
First you get these things established, then find a gun that seems to fit the bill. Next, you have to weigh the hype and less than reliable reviews to see if it still fits the bill. Then you hope that you get one that does not have something wrong with it.
Even then, you still might not like it.

twotalon

J-F

A good question for you…

How good does it have to do for you ?

twotalon

In Part 1 you wrote that this is a large pistol. Whenever I look at the photo, however, I experience an optical disconnect of sorts because its sleek lines are so much like the more compact PPK and Makarov. Without a hand holding it or a soda can next to it for a frame of visual reference, I keep “emotionally thinking” (if that makes any sense) of it as small, despite my intellectual knowledge to the contrary.

Would it be possible to photograph it next to your CO2 PPK/s?

Thanks,

Michael

J-F

I get a bit more than 12 ft-lb out of my T200 if I crank it up with Exact RS. Could probably get more with heavier pellets.
Want to try two or three more kinds of pellets. Maybe 8.4 Exacts, CPl, Preds, maybe even wadcutters.
Have it running in R7 territory right now (640 fps).

twotalon

I didn’t think that you could have an S200 in your neck of the woods. It is 16 joules, or almost 12 fpe. I’m not sure that BB described it as that bad, just that he didn’t particularly dig it. There are many that do, including me. It is small, light, and accurate. It can also be had with the optional 10 shot magazine that makes it into a repeater.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96dR8JESCPM

The AA S200 is actually made by CZ, who sells the same gun as a 200S, which is what I have. In the video you can see from the top of the action that it is made in the Czech Republic. The trigger and power are adjustable.

Thanks. I’ll bring it up to the IT department.

Edith

I have a Diana 34P in .22 and it is just about the perfect hunting breakbarrel. That one is 46″, but PA also sells the Pro Compact, which measures 42.13″.

http://www.pyramydair.com/s/m/Diana_RWS_34P_Pro_Compact/1498

Same action, shorter barrel.

Edith

The aforementioned Pro Compact has 29 five-star reviews, but the link for them takes you nowhere.

How often does the back deck on your minivan collapse from the gas springs dying? The springs in airguns are made better than that.

The back lid on my pickup capper needs replacement after 2 years. My R1 gas spring is now about 12 years old and still holding up.

B.B.

That’s mighty close to a $150.00 PCP

Olympic smallbore rifle normally has a long bull barrel, making them muzzle heavy. Some of the Anschutz rifle has a 69cm (27.2 inches) long barrel, not counting the extension tube.

Robert from Arcade, I think someone, maybe it was Herb, circulated a picture awhile ago of a group of 5000 shots or something like that. In theory a group should not grow larger after 30 but if you are setting up on different days that is probably the source of the error.

Michael, Wulfraed is right, I was talking about Geographic Information Systems (GIS), the wave of the future that underlies the GPS systems that are making such strides. Basically, you overlay various kinds of data on electronic maps. The analysis part is mostly adding and subtracting once you get past the clunky software architecture and the horrendously bad explanations.

Matt61

I’ve been “in the tunnel” for a while, which means I’m devoting all my time & energy to getting the summer catalogs ready. When I’m out of the tunnel, I’ll get back to linking the blogs to the products.

Edith

Did I add something of value to this post? I know some of you were mad about me saying bad things about the new LGV.

I would love to buy a Walther LGV even at $700 only if I know that it can shoot like the old LGV. Too bad they don’t make the old LGV anymore; I would not hesitate to buy a new one. The report is so quiet, I can shoot all day in my backyard and none of my neighbors will know. Isn’t this what is all about, quiet report, very smooth firing cycle, very easy to cock, very gentle recoil, good trigger, and accurate, instead of just POWER, POWER and more POWER.

What happened to your review of the Ruger Air Hawk Elite? I can’t find it. I usually just go to the PA product page to find the link to your reviews, but the link wasn’t there, and it isn’t turning up when I do a search here.

Victor

One last thing, B.B. did a blog on the Air Hawk Elite. He got fairly impressive results from it. Unfortunately, I can’t find the link for it.

Victor

I have an Air Hawk Elite and have found it to be very accurate. At 10 meters I was able to shoot one single ragged hole 10 shot group. I’ve only taken it to the desert once or twice to shoot out to 25 yards. I was able to get about one inch groups, but with sporadic wind. On a calmer day I’m sure the groups will shrink to under half an inch.

Two important points:
1. My Elite model loves Crosman Premier Heavies. It does NOT like light pellets.
2. The first time I took mine out to the desert, mine was shooting all over the place because the stock screws were loose. Make sure that all screws are tightened, including on your scope.

I hold my Elite loosely. I find that I shoot my best groups when the gun is rested at just the right height (not too high, not too low). Also, make sure that your right forearm does not make contact with the table, because otherwise you’ll add muscle contractions to your shot execution (i.e., trigger squeeze).

Squeeze the trigger such that you cause the gun to go off without disturbing your sight alignment, and follow-through for 2 or 3 seconds, making sure that the gun settles back to where it was before you took the shot. If the gun settles at a different aim-point, then you need to work on finding your “natural point of aim” (NPA), where the aim-point sits naturally on the bulls-eye without need to force it.

Victor

As for today post, I agree BB. Threw out my years of shooting firearms and airguns, I’ve found at times that I take it too serious. Sometimes I have to remind myself it is about Fun. Some of the most fun can come from my “cheaper” guns and just plinking. Nothing like shooting way further than the gun (air or powder) was intended to shoot and hear that “ding” of the bullet/pellet hitting the metal plate, pipe, barrel or whatever. Bradly

J-F

I have shot the S200 several times (by “shot” I mean tested it thoroughly) and it always left me cold. It is an average gun, made in Bosnia, I believe, with nothing special to recommend it. I shot the CO2 version of the rifle before the hobbyists converted it to air, and way before Air Arms contracted to have it made that way. It was mediocre in that trim, too.

The Crosman Challenger you mentioned is a much more interesting gun, in my opinion. I like the accuracy, the trigger and the general setup of the rifle — but only for target work. It is no sporter, as you mention.

That said, the S200 has a large following of shooters who really like it. There must be something I am not seeing for so many people to like it as much as they do.

The Talon SS with a 24-inch barrel is one of the best combinations I can name. Great power and accuracy. But some people don’t like its straight lines. They find it hard to get down on the scope.

As for the Discovery, it is a fine entry-level rifle, but if you already have a Marauder, you don’t need one. That would be going backwards.

The TX200 is the finest spring rifle in the world, in my opinion, and I am going to do some more testing on one in the near future.

B.B.

Out of curiosity, what are a few of the sporters you would refer to. Also, have you ever tested the Air Arms S200? That rifle is intriguing to me from what I have read about it. I would be curious to see what results you would get from it.
G & G

Did you mean to say Ruger Air Hawk Elite? The Elite version of the Air Hawks has a thumb-hole stock.

Victor

Don’t fall into the trap of thinking that 10 meter rifles are the most accurate. There are sporting PCPs that can shoot rings around them, and at distance.

Look hard at the Benjamin Marauder.

As for JSB, they make pellets as fast as they can. Pyramyd Air must be their largest customer (just my guess) but they are being drained from the worldwide demand. And they won’t lower their standards to increase production.

At least we can still get pellets! Try buying a brick of .22 these days! Until the government is stopped from buying up all ammunition, buying anything with power is going to be a challenge.

And, welcome to the blog!

B.B.

Repeating spring-piston pellet guns do exist. Webley made them, as did Gamo, Theoben and some others.

B.B.

This report is quite timely for me for information purposes since I have been researching for the past month for a PCP rifle that would be nearly as or as accurate as a 10 meter match rifle but also equally accurate at 25 to 50 yards (given the understanding that groups naturally open up as the distance increases). I currently have a Weihrauch HW30s that will shoot 1/4″ or smaller 10 shot groups at 10 meters and 1/4″ to 1/2″ groups at 25 meters but I haven’t tried it at 50 yards yet. (and as you know its a breakbarrel).

As far as this PCP that I am looking for goes I currently have two candidates in mind. The Crosman Challenger and the Air Arms S200. However, I don’t believe the Challenger has enough umph for 50 yards without a seriously arching trajectory.

I would appreciate your comments regarding achieving my goal with either of these rifles. Or better yet, what suggestions would you make for the most likely PCP gun to shoot this well. Or, is this a pipe dream of mine and a waste of time? For the record I have amassed a rather large gallery of rifles already re: Air Arms S500, TX200, R9, Talon SS, Marauder, Discovery to name a few.

I really have developed a love affair with this sport in a short time. I find it both exhilarating and relaxing at the same time.

Another subject, what in the world is going on with JSB? I have had the Diabolo Exact 10.34gr pellets on backorder with Pyramyd Air for 6 weeks and this morning I see they have been pushed back two more weeks. These are my favorite pellets by a long shot and I’m down to my last half of a tin.

Keep up the good work and know that I am open to anything you may have to tell me.

Guns & Guitars

J-F

Calm days are to shooters like catnip is to house cats.

That LGV is so photogenic. Metal and wood in a blessed marriage. I’m such an old school fuddy duddy.

kevin

Yesterday, you wondered why the black MK-177 was so much more expensive than the tan version, and I explained that we were investigating this with Crosman because some people thought it was a kit that included a case and several other accessories. Turns out that the price is wrong, and it will be lowered. This is not being sold as a kit, and you’ll get just the gun (which is what you wanted). It takes time for the website to update, so you may not see a lower price until later this afternoon or even tomorrow morning.

Edith

Sometimes that happens. That’s what I did with the Benjamin Trail NP pistol last week — held it rigid on a rest. If all else fails…

B.B.

I do plan on using the original sights that are on the rifle. I found when I tested my FWB 300S at 50 yards that peep sights were about as good as a scope.

B.B.

Then look here:

http://airgun-academy.pyramydair.com/blog/2012/04/the-tx-200-part-3/

B.B.

Then, it’s on!

B.B.

J-F

But hey, no “Attaboy” for my obscure comical reference to the GISS recoil-canceling system?

Michael

I felt the Fontana/Levinson television series, especially the first season, was as raw, unvarnished drama as I had ever seen. That heartbreaking ending of the first episode, where a young detective’s first-day at Homicide ends with his taking a call, going unaccompanied to the dark crime scene, not even yet roped off, a crowd standing directly around a young girl’s body, and a pouring rain washing away any potential for physical evidence. The look on his face . . . .

Michael

http://airgun-academy.pyramydair.com/blog/2012/03/air-arms-tx200-mk-iii-air-rifle-part-2/

Software extract/chart information on geographical concerns (probably with the ability to define the regions of interest — US states, major metropolitan area, etc.)

No, you did not test the TX200 at 50 yards. This sounds like a good excuse to get some range time in with one of your favorite rifles.

What is GIS?

Are you taking a class in how to move backwards at the same exact moment and with the same exact force as you move forward, thereby feeling as though you are not moving in either direction at all? (LOL)

Seriously, though, what IS GIS?

Michael

Michael

You are certainly right about paying versus getting. There are plenty of products that are overpriced junk, and plenty that are quite good despite being affordable.

If the Challenger version were $100 less, I’d buy one, but I agree that these are in the upper range for springers. It is also true that I have too many air rifles as it is!

More and more I am narrowing my collection down to Feinwerkbaus and a couple Dianas. But I find it frustrating that FWB have made so few models! I have a 150, two 300ses, a 601, and a 124. I’ll not spend 2000 dollars on a 10 meter pcp unless somehow I wake up some morning as a world-class shooter, so that is out! ;^)

Michael

Michael

The black gun is priced the same as the MK-177 kit, which includes a case and other accys (it’s not activated yet on Pyramyd Air’s website). We’re trying to determine if the black gun we’re getting is really just the gun and price is wrong or if it’s really a kit and the picture is wrong. I hope we’ll have it fixed by tomrrow.

Edith

I’m with you on being impressed with this gun in all of its versions. I guess I look at both the fact that it’s an “un-broken-in shooter” right out of the box and that it will be something to handed down when I’m gone, not just a throw away…

/Dave

What I have is one of the very first FWB 124 air rifles ever made, sold from the Beeman’s house in San Anselmo before they moved the business to San Rafael. It shoots like it’s supposed to: Hobbies around 810fps, CPLs at about 795. I didn’t calculate the fpe. before my previous post, so maybe it’s around 10-10.5 fpe, not 9.5, but for a tuned (not necessarily detuned in the least) S.A. 124, that’s about right. San Rafael 124 models shoot Hobbies at about 850 fps. (What does that come out to in fpe.?)

My 124 has what looks like a recently (5 years or so) replaced leather breech seal. As for its piston seal, I plan to work on a few springers over the summer, so while I am opening them up, I’ll go ahead and take a look inside this one, too.

Michael

Now that’s just not right! You’re not making my decision any easier you know!?! How on earth am I supposed to blame YOU for my mistake if you’re not giving me clear and concise direction on which to buy first?!?

(Took lessons from the wife on those statements….)

/Dave

Matt61

Matt61

Where you from in MD? I’m in Baltimore (originally Cumberland).

-Jan

The LGV Master Ultra (beech) is ambidextrous. The left-handed TX200 in beech is not $100 cheaper to me, it is $60 cheaper. The LGV Challenger (Same powerplant as the Master Ultra) is also ambidextrous and costs $64 less than the lefty TX200. It also weighs a pound less than the TX200 in beech.

Keep in mind I am referring to the US version of the TX, as the UK version, as far as I can tell, is made of unobtainium or exotictrillium and is recollected in “nostalgi-fondness.” It’s better than the FAC in the same way the old Sheridan .20 pellets were better than today’s .20 CPLs and Benjamins — it’s better in some guilded past.

If you don’t like the Walthers, don’t buy one. I probably won’t, either.

But if you choose to draw an unfavorable comparison between it and the UK version of the TX200, I say forget the UK TX200! Get an old sliding action version of the TX 200; I suspect you’ll love it. Everyone knows the reason A.A. discontinued it was because it was so wonderful it made buyers instantly combust with joy when they experienced its smoothness. It made phlem on a doorknob feel like 200 grit!

Michael

Michael

I would expect you to understand. You have tried to do this.

I have tried pistol primers. So far I don’t see any difference, but I’ve got 5,000 small rifle benchrest primers on order, so there is more to see.

B.B.

Me, either. They charge more for stainless steel and nickel guns, too, and I won’t have them in my collection. So I guess it boils down to taste.

B.B.

A decent running 124 should generate over 12 fpe. Methinks you have A) a de-tuned gun, or B) a broken mainspring or a bad seal (piston or breech). If a bad seal (and the original piston seals do deteriorate), best to fix it before you hammer the innards to death.

Yeah, man…drag out that TX for a few groups when you get the chance.

The LGV is a “no sale” item with me, but I do appreciate what Walther has put into it. Weight and “what would I do with another German rifle” are the factors. Nobody talked me out of it except…..me.

twotalon

A 12 foot-pound TX200 is harder to cock than the FAC model. I used to have oner. It also vibrated more.

The 12-foot-pound gun has a shorter stroke. believe me — you would not like it as much. They did import them and nobody liked how they cocked or shot. In fact, I sometimes get requests for tuners who can take 12 foot-pound TX200s back to FAC specs.l It’s a lot of parts no one has, because the entire powerplant has to be converted.

B.B.

Yes, if I was shooting field target I would be concerned about the scope height — though not too concerned. I have seen FT rifles that had their scopes mounted five inches above the bore line. The trick isn’t the scope height — it’s knowing where the pellet will land at every distance — assuming the erector tube isn’t floating.

But once again, I was shooting at 50 yards and only at that distance. It made no difference where the scope was adjusted, as long as the erector tube wasn’t floating, which it wasn’t.

An equivalent situation is the guy hunting buffalo versus the guy shooting groups at 500 yards. The buffalo hunter does need to know what the range is for every shot. The target shooter doesn’t care. Once he is on paper, the bullets are all going to the same place.

B.B.

Michael

My TX200 is a Mark III, which is the latest design. And my rifle compares favorably to all the brand-new TX200s that are coming out of the UK today. I shot a brand new TX last year and it was identical in feel,m and accuracy. So, rather than tie up an expensive gun for 6 months, I will just use the one I have.

If I thought there was a difference I would get a new one. But I am sure there isn’t.

That said, every TX does need to be shot to break in. They don’t get smoother, but they do speed up.

B.B.

Perhaps PA should import the 12 ft-Lbs version of the TX200. I mean BB and some of us like that great shooting experience and don’t care for that extra foot-Lb of energy.

“For Field Target, the most crucial distance is 55 yards. This is the longest distance and
therefore where your scope needs to perform at its peak. So, the scope needs to be at
“Optical Centre” when the elevation turret is set to 55 yards. By this we mean that when
set to 55 yards, the elevation turret will be in the middle of its adjustment range.”

I learned this the hard way. It does have an impact on long distance accuracy.

The 224 would be interesting if it were a 13 to 16 fpe breakbarrel. That could (emphasis: COULD) be a breakbarrel to rival the best underlevers.

Actually, I have to ask why FWB doesn’t do their version of the HW77 / AA TX200 / HW97? I envision a $1500 TX200 that shoots like a 10m PCP but has much less attractive wood!

Michael

The TX200 and the LGV Challenger are both on my short list. Is there any possible way you can test a “new” TX200 if you decide to do it? That way I’ll have a better idea of what to expect out of the box. If not, that’s ok too, since I already know from your last test and from their reputation that they break in well.

/Dave

That’s not a problem with either of the LGV’s I have tested. Both have almost no barrel droop. So the erector spring remains under a lot of tension and the scope stays on zero. In fact, the adjustments are over in the tighter, rather than looser, range of their travel.

B.B,.

“Based on where you’re at (that day was 10M/open sights), I’m hereby on record that this version will produce field run groups of about 1.5″ with best pellet. Which is ok, but not great, for a top-end springer.”

Bing-badda-binging-BING! GIVE the MAN a CEE-gar!

Shame, really. One of those times I would have been OK with being dead wrong. Being a springophile, I wanted this one to be a winner. Its hard to justify six clams for a piece with clunky-functional lumber that won’t significantly out-shoot my humblest piece, a modded Crosman Phantom. Here’s hoping Feinwerkbau shortly announces the new 224….

I can’t remember, either. Maybe I need to test it again?

B.B.

It’s a typical mistake. Many people make it on the first few moves. Send a small contribution and I will see that the right paperwork is filled out and gets put in your file.

Only too happy to help a friend.

B.B.

I can’t remember if, when you tested the TX200, you also tested this fine rifle at 50 yards?

Fred DPRoNJ

duskwight

The height of the scope is irrelevant when you are zeroes for one range and only shoot at that distance. As long as you don’t cant, it’s not a problem.

You keep from canting by using visual cues at the target. Just keep lining the scope up the same way and the rifle will always be in the same attitude.

B.B.

Finally someone besides me has one of these. Now you can tell them what you think.

I’m glad your rifle is working out so well.

B.B.

An FWB 65, you say? Wonderful gun! I have owned them and they make great target pistols.

Now, as for your absence from this blog — we can excuse you this time, but please submit your request for leave time in advance from now on. There are schedules to be maintained, you know.

B.B.

A Bemjamin 422 is a wonderful vintage airgun!

This man can reseal it for you:

Rick Willnecker in PA. Contact him at http://www.airgunshop.net/ or call 717-382-1481.

B.B.

After cleaning the barrel with a half dozen dry patches (not much crap in the barrel, just some of the usual brownish gunk usually found in a new gun), I shot about 50 or 60 Crosman CPL lights from a measured 50 feet. After the usual warm up and sighting in the scope, I was pretty much consistently hitting within the 9-ring of the Gamo paper target ( http://www.pyramydair.com/s/a/Gamo_Paper_Targets_100_pack/147#refId=850c816bff99d955a9924f0105ad9827 ).

I basically used my sniper hold, resting the forearm of the stock on an elevated rolled up terry towel, with my left hand directly below the bottom rear of the stock. I tried a couple other holds, and found the rifle wasn’t all that picky on how it was held.

The trigger is pretty exceptional, nice wide blade and predictable action. I left it at stock settings; I may try some of the adjustments to get it to break a tad lighter. The cocking effort was a bit more than expected, but seemed to be getting easier toward the end of my shooting.

The wood on this rifle is very nice, warm color, well finished with nice pistol grip stippling. The metal is nicely and consistently blued with just a bit of a sheen to it. It’s a well made rifle and definitely lives up to the Walther branding.

I’ve posted some pics over on the GTA in the European Gate/German category, look for “Wrecktangle” user.

I’m thinking that this rifle may become legendary status, and become to breakbarrels what the TX 200 is to underlevers. It does compare very favorably with the TX 200 in build and accuracy.

I admit, I have a lot more shooting to do with the Walter, but for now it’ll be the gun I grab off my rack when I get the opportunity to shoot.

I became a proud owner of FWB 65 – several “grey” spots due to its age (it’s older than me ), but it still works perfect and makes extremely nice groups with consistent speed. Sorry for being most time offline recently – I’m moving to another apartment, so all tools are packed, no place to work and what’s worst – no time.

duskwight

http://pdfsb.com/el+gamo+68+manual

Fred DPRoNJ

Understood. Power sells. Has for decades. The first time buyer wants the most powerful.

Nonetheless, I think an easily accurate airgun with good bluing and wood stock (let’s just say quality) would fill more than a niche market. The buzz that has been created by walthers new LGV introduction is minor evidence. If the stock style was more sporter traditional which resulted in about 1-1.5lbs being shed the future sales of the LGV might be a better benchmark. It will still be interesting to see what the success of the sales will be.

The bronco would be my second piece of evidence for a mild, accurate shooter. Having a tough time thinking of another low-mid power springer sporter introduction lately. Thus, the void I was referring to.

Yes, better fit, finish and a little more power translates into a much higher price point than the bronco but I sense the market is there. I could also be all wet.

kevin

New topic if that is ok.

Picked up a 10 shot Benjamin CO2 semi auto today. (.22)

Had one a long time ago.

Put a drop of Pellgunoil in the screen and loaded a CO2 cartridge.

Put a couple dozen shots through it.

Hoping the oil works it magic in the internal seals.

If not, what are the chances of getting replacement seals?

That’s probably easy. Is your scope adjusted up a lot? Is the elevation adjustment in the upper quarter of the range? That’s what is causing the scope drift. The erector tube return spring is relaxed and the reticle bounces around between shots.

B.B.

I have one — it was advertised for a few months in the back pages of American Rifleman; something like $20-30 of the cost was supposed to fund the USST.

never realized the sound goes up as tank pressure goes down.

To a point… At the highest pressure, the valve is forced closed sooner (the argument ad absurdum is the infamous valve lock — where the pressure is so high the striker can’t even open the valve). The you hit the point were the striker and pressure build-up on the chamber side can hold the valve open longer. Finally you get to the point where there just isn’t enough pressure to “bark”.

It correlates to that “upside down bathtub” velocitypressure curve: velocity increases as the top pressure comes down, flattens out (though “flat” may be quite bowed) through the optimal range, then starts falling again. Something that doesn’t happen with the Micro-Meter tank, which appears to use a secondary air chamber with a small bleed hole. When the striker hits the MM dumps all the air in the small secondary chamber and the valve closes — then the secondary chamber refills via the bleed from the main chamber. {This may not be the physical design, but works as a mental experiment to explain why the MM just continuous to drop in velocity: The pressurized volume stays the same, but the pressure drops with each shot, so less and less volume at ambient pressure is released}

Other factor for the loudness… If the prototype had been sampled in a wide open area, the main sound producing waves probably exited the front of the housing and just kept going (might even have been a “smoke ring” vortex) and not bounced back to the shooters. Shooting indoors or near a side wall is producing reflections.

I use to shoot my multipumps with less pumps indoors. Then I bought a 953, which ended up being the 2nd most accurate airgun at 10 meters I own. The most accurate one I own is an 853 with 753 style sights. Generally, you can spend 3 to 4 times the money on a new 753 which makes the 953 a good airgun for the money and worth checking out. It wouldn’t hurt to keep an eye out for a used 953 at PA, gun broker or network 54 to bring costs down.

Edith, nothing could top the story of you and B.B. So, B.B. as elephant. Well, you can say so. But my regard and respect for elephants is second to none, so I can say so too. Didn’t you say that B.B. has difficulty recognizing faces? He must have thought out his plan very carefully. I myself have tried the romance in church ploy, but it didn’t work as well. I fell in with a bunch who decided that they would greet each other with a hug just as they imagined the early Christians did. A real community of love. I liked that idea very much. But then it turns out that the girls I targeted, like B.B., just gave even bigger smiles and got even more familiar with the guys they were interested in compared to me. So, nothing really changed and my joy was turned to gall. Well, after telling your friends that you had yet to date the man that you were going to marry, that would have been your chance to play out one of my favorite scenes from The Graduate.

Father: You mean that Elaine doesn’t know you’re going up to Berkeley?
Ben: No, she doesn’t know that we’re getting married.
Father: When did you decide this?
Ben: About an hour ago. In fact, she doesn’t even like me.
Father: Ben…This all sounds pretty half-baked.
Ben: No, it’s COMPLETELY BAKED.

john, I thought that getting your AK47 wrecked by your ex-wife was the worst of it, but I guess not. Your line from The Graduate would be (from the father): “This doesn’t sound too good Ben.” If your wife was the result of a conviction that she was the one for you, you should probably avoid following any such convictions in the future and do the exact opposite.

FredPRofNJ and Slinging Lead, I’m glad if I could clarify things for you about the nonresponsive women. Changes the perspective doesn’t it? When you see that behavior, you know at least there’s a chance that she avoids eye contact so as not to expose the wild passion within that she cannot control, and there’s sense in that. The thing to do is be noble and sympathetic.

If elephants have shown us so much, what do you suppose that lions can do? Have you ever had sleek females in heat circling eagerly for your attention while you remain lordly and distant and gazing off at the horizon?

On another note, on the subject of police responsiveness, I read that the Cleveland police were called after the recently released captive women, as young girls, were being led around in a yard by dog collars. But the police didn’t even show up. To paraphrase Martin Luther King Jr.: “I’m sorry I can’t share [an] enthusiasm for [these] police.”

Matt61

I should say that I was talking about AF rifles as being impressive as I don’t have this new model.
We are talking about the same basic design. Straight line mechanism. LW barrel. Really nothing different about the “working” parts.
If you are not familiar with the AF ergonomics, then you may or may not be impressed with that part. They are a killing machine when it comes to bottom line function. They do it well.

twotalon

If you get one that has no glitches in the manufacturing process, then it should be a good shooter. They can be very impressive.
This one should do well. It’s not full Condor power because of the barrel length. It can still be pretty nasty on the recieving end if that’s your objective.

Please use a chrono if you have one. You can set up the power curve to give you the best air conservation and power at the same time.

Even my little T200 gets louder as the pressure runs down, still giving the same velocity….because it is using more air as it goes.

twotalon

It will be what it will be.
If you adjust it so that it does not waste much air, then it will be as quiet as it can get for that particular power level. You may or may not be happy with it. I don’t know. It’s up to you.

If you crank these rifles beyond max they get a lot louder and give you nothing else in return .
Set it up with a chrono.
They do get louder as you shoot down the tank pressure…. they use more air.

Where you shoot it makes a difference in percieved noise. The real noise is in front of the muzzle.

twotalon

Interesting historical note. Beer is one of the oldest known alcoholic beverages in the world. It was likely on board Noah’s arc since in those days the alcohol content was the only way to keep anything drinkable on a ship. Pure water would grow bacteria and other nasties so beer was the only practical way to keep water. as it was simple to brew and store more than wine.

Don’t expect “quiet” to be what you think it SHOULD be in your own mind or expectations. It is what it is. You get a lot of punch for what noise you get.

twotalon

No she was not upset. She does not like a lot of things that I do. She does not like that flavor anyway.
I bought a big jug of cheese balls for target practice, but found that they sucked for that, but work great for possum and coon bait. Someting is useful for something.

She helped edit this because I am wasted on Beam and Coke.

twotalon

I did something like that this year for my mom. I found a certain candy I used to like when I was little that I hadn’t seen in many years and got some for her. It might not be her favorite but it was the memory that goes with them that was the real gift. She was a bit confused over the strange gift until she remembered what they were.

My wife has figured me out….to some degree…..

She found a sheet of black card stock on the back porch that has rows of white Life Savers glued to it.
She did not take long to figure the plan….shoot through the Life Savers. At first when I bought them she had the idea that I was going to eat them . I don’t care for that flavor anyway. She did not know it.

Sometimes they are too smart.

twotalon

J-F

That has been done. It was called the Fire 201. Twenty-five caliber and 100 #8 birdshot per charge. It did propel them at over 1,000 f.p.s., but even then they didn’t penetrate a coffee can bottom at 10 feet. Small shot carries too little inertia.

Might have been good for hummingbirds at 20 feet and 20 to life if you got caught. Audebon could shoot them, but we can’t.

B.B.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vernors

When I got my condor I was instantly spoiled. I rarely ever use any of my other guns now. Most of them sit in the racks gathering dust. The only one I have used lately is my Gamo Viper Express shotgun. The reason for that is While I’m surgical with a rifle, I have very little experience with shotguns. Shotgun ammo is a bit expensive for just practicing so I pull out the next best thing. An air shotgun. The Viper Express is kind of a useless airgun but it was an innovation I never saw before so I got jazzed enough about it I bought one. It’s not a bad gun and it’s relatively accurate, but the shotgun shells spread out and are kinda worthless after 10 yards with all the tiny bird shot losing velocity fairly quickly.
If anything, I’d like to see that gun revisited maybe with a larger caliber and a bit heavier shot and beefed up power plant. Oh, and reloadable shells.

Between the TV showing of “War of the Worlds”, and being at Ft. Rucker (Army helicopter flight school) during the Vietnam war period… Hearing aircraft outside tended to be more a signal to move away from windows into sheltered area — so I couldn’t be targeted…

What do you expect from a 4th grader?

So, practice with the cheaper version, then put the gun away in the nightstand with the “cleaner” nickle.

Then there are the Birchwood-Casey “Darkotics” spattering targets. If you don’t like diseased rats, zombie pizza delivery, they also have carnivorous jackalopes and blood-thirsty garden gnomes (you’ll never look at Travelocity the same way again).

At this point, I’d say give up on the break barrel and use a lever/loading-port… Something like the m54…

I said exactly which model I tested in Part 1. It was the Challenger — not the Challenger Ultra. I am also testing the LGV Master Ultra at this time. It is a more powerful rifle. I have done 5 Parts on that report, as well.

In Part 2 of this report I give the velocities that I got when testing this rifle. You need to read the other 5 Parts of this report. The links to all of them at at the beginning of this article.

B.B.

The Rogue trigger is adjustable. It cannot be programmed, but it can be adjusted.

B.B.

Yes, the Chinese guns Crosman sells do have awful triggers. Now, try a Marauder trigger.

B.B.

J-F

This is an old blog, it’s almost 2 months old and not a lot of people monitor the older blogs for questions.
You can ask question on the blog published every day of the week, no need to stay on topic. The blog comes out at 00h01 eastern time.

In the mean time I don’t know if this can help you but here is part 5 of the Ultra tested in .177, just like this one you have links at the top of the page for parts 1 to 4.
http://airgun-academy.pyramydair.com/blog/2013/05/walthers-new-lgv-master-ultra-177-air-rifle-part-5/

J-F

Upon further investigation I came upon this review and went yesterday to buy me the Walther LGV Challenger 4.5mm. The salesman said it can reach up to a 1000 FPS, however, when I opened the box, the book indicates there are 600 FPS and 1000 FPS models. Apparently only the “Walther LGV Challenger *Ultra* 4.5m” can reach 1000 FPS.

Questions:
1. Which of the two models did you test: The Walther LGV Challenger or the Walther LGV Challenger *Ultra*?
2. If your test was done on the Walther LGV Challenger *Ultra*, would you still recommend the the Walther LGV Challenger, if one is used to the power of the Crossman Optimus?

I have not tested the Walter yet, just in case I would want to return it to the dealer.

I bought the “JSB Exact 8.44 (4.52)” pellets with the Walther as well yesterday.

I grew up on a fruit farm and was hunting birds since I was eight years of age. I quickly learned that every shot counts, if you are awarded at the end of every day for your bird-count. I am not an expert, but I still enjoy making each and every shot counts.

Regards

J-F

Some of us do learn of our mistakes… sometimes.

J-F

/Dave

Zombies are forever. It’s been that way since I can remember. Night of the Living Dead back in the 60’s creeped me out really bad… Couldn’t sleep for a week.

/Dave

J-F

I suppose if I used a hand pump to fill a PCP is would be almost the same thing but that feels kind of one step removed from the immediacy of the energize-fire cycle of an SSP or springer.

Things I would really like to see: the new LGV being made available with stock and sights modeled on the old Walther Olympia and a rifle in the same price/quality/performance range as the Daisy/Avanti 853 but with a sidelever action and a stock in the fashion of a 10M rifle (the lines of the FWB 300 would be a good inspiration).

You are right, of course. I should have said electronic calculators.

B.B.

It might at that, except that part goes into the frame too far. The spacing would be wrong. This would take some machining and measuring.

B.B.

Now, THAT is a new idea!

B.B.

Nary a day goes by at Pyramyd Air without an email from a customer looking for power. I’m guessing the online chats and the phone calls have a similar theme. The manufacturers produce powerful guns because they sell, sell, sell. Selling a second or third gun to the same guy doesn’t appear to be anything to consider since there will always be the next guy who’s willing to buy powerful guns.

I remember when we used to ship guns via UPS and had to declare what was in the package. The minute we said “airgun,” there was at least one person in line who’d pipe up and say they had the most powerful airgun made. Tom would immediately counter with, “You’ve got a Gamo.” That was always the case because these guys never heard of big bores or the Condor.

People buy what they want, and they want power. It’s a widespread affliction based on what I see being sold in stores and online.

While you and many of the other guys on this blog appear to have been inoculated against this illness, the vast majority of buyers are not. The same holds true for firearms. Why do you think those wrist-wrenching guns sell? They’re powerful. Men drive these sales, and manufacturers simply produce what they KNOW will sell.

Edith

http://www.winzeler.ch/Winzeler_Crossbow_en/Crossbow_Handling/Crossbow_handling_2_index.html

Starting from this page you can explore more about the trigger, etc.

~ken

If I take out the ruger air hawk, beeman r-1, and some chinese made no name break barrel for a day at my personal range every one looks the same, I hit the same target in the same spot, at the same range, there is no real excitement and I realize I might as well just saved my money and kept my airhawk and never bothered with the others. That makes me look at the Walther LGR and think “This looks like all the rest, functions like all the rest and will likely give me all the results I get with the rest, I cannot justify a $600 for it. Yet everybody else is swearing up and down it’s the best you can get. Deep down when you get into the nuts, bolts and springs, the tech has not really changed enough for me to justify the buy like I could justify the Condor. Now that I have my Condor I looked at the Condor SS. When the prototype was hailed as quiet, I was all jazzed about it. When the report comes out on the actual gun it’s called loud. Now I’m not as jazzed since I know my condor with it’s fully shrouded barrel is in fact quiet if I set the dial right. So now I’ll wait until I see that quiet gun be quiet as I was believing at first.

Now Crosman has the MK-177 that promised to be a harder hitter than the M4-177, has a unique look, that has me excited over a plastic cheap gun. The MSR-77 is another gun I am jazzed about. It’s just another 1000 fps springer. Functions like all the rest, but easily identifiable in the rack with the look of an AR15. That has me happier about a break barrel than the LGR and I can justify a $150 more than I can $700.

Look at Crosman Vantage, Crosman nitro Venom and Crosman optimus. All identical with slight variations in butt stock. They blend in with everything else so I wouldn’t bother buying any of them. It’s best to stick with my Ruger Airhawk.

Hate to pick nits, but… As far as I know, no one sells new mechanical calculators today. I’m pretty sure you’re referring to hand-held, electronic calculators, specifically the $5 scientific calculators that big-box stores sell every autumn when the kiddies go back to school.

“What would you like to see, and how can it be accomplished?”

I’m going to buck the trend a bit here since I like plinking, I dislike hold sensitive guns, and I still want something on the cheap (which rules out PCPs). So I’m going to say I’d like to see an easy to cock single-pump pneumatic sized for older teens/adults, with actual iron (err… plastic) sights not that fiber-optic crap, that puts out 3-5 ft-lbs muzzle energy, and that retails for around $50.

As for how it could be accomplished… Scale up the Daisy Grizzly. Or put a Daisy 953 power plant in a Daisy 880/Daisy 35.

Thanks for your reply. I thought that the part of Van’s moderator that slides into the frame would give the baffles something to press against.

Bruce

I don’t know if it would give you the right position. I think the palm rests are set up with an adjustable offset to move the rest back toward the trigger.

twotalon

There you go! It’s a knee rest! I’d imagine that you can also use it as a palm-rest for shooting offhand. The ones that I’ve seen were black colored. That’s what I want.

Victor

twotalon

Most probably knee rests in FT.

I would like to find out some of this myself. My T200 has a rail under it, but I have no idea what kind it is.

twotalon

For starters, I can see taking the new Walther LVG competition model with adjustable cheek-piece, and putting target sights (aperture sights front and rear). It would be better if they had a thumb-hole stock.

Again, because I’m exploring the idea of shooting up to 50 yards, the .22 caliber version makes more sense.

Victor

I’ve seen pictures of field target shooters using what looks like a palm-rest. Does anyone know where one can find one of these palm-rest’s that I believe are used by field target competitors? These palm-rest are rectangular in shape and allow the shooter to raise the rifle up for convenience.

Victor

Sure….there is always room for more kinds of competition . I have not kept up with all the kinds. People keep inventing new kinds all the time. Some of it is born out of plinking games. Mostly informal stuff. Getting something established on a formal and national level (or even an international level) could be tough because of power/caliber limitations in some countries.

twotalon

My mother, who has long since passed away, used to describe as a child how everyone would run out of the house to look at an airplane flying overhead. No one back then thought of flying to the moon or satellites.

Improvements will get here so long as there is financial reward for the financial risk – aka – capitalism. It will be in our lifetimes so sit back and enjoy the show!

Fred DPRoNJ

The rifle would break sideways, and thus not have to contend with gravity in the same way as current break=barrels.

I’m just throwing things out, since today’s topic is about where things can/might go with airguns.

I really like the idea of precision class .22 caliber air-rifles that could be used in matches similar to NRA and ISSF, but out to 25 and 50 yards, instead of just 10 meters.

I think that there are plenty of people here who are much smarter and insightful than me to help come up with good ideas as to how we might make this happen. In other words, come up with a rough specification, or set of realizable goals.

Victor

Sideways droop ? I dunnow. Put the rail under a Diana 48. Then you have downward droop, but you can have a rail too.

I don’t know why they droop them. My 97k has no droop.

twotalon

Yes, electronic triggers are not better than mechanical triggers. I would often hear that they could “almost” be compared with a Karl Kenyan trigger, which is what most world class shooters used.

Victor

Wind and pellets…
That gets hard to test. Where I shoot, the wind is usually too variable in speed and direction. On top of that, there is uneven terrain and obstacles. Buildings, trees, fence rows. The wind twists and swirls. The pellets get bounced around in all directions.

twotalon

Ooh! Ooh! I got another idea!
Since I want an Anschutz rail under the stock for things like a hand-stop/sling, counter-weights, bipod, etc., there would be issues with current break-barrels because they break vertically down.

Why couldn’t a whole new class of break-barrels be made that break to the side (i.e., horizontally)? They would be less likely to have barrel droop, I would think.

Victor

I first started seeing electronic triggers for precision class guns (airgun and small-bore) in the mid-70’s, so it’s almost going on 40 years.

Victor

Indoors would be best, but I’ve not seen too many indoor ranges that go out to 50 yards.

But again, the targets would be reasonably relaxed. My Anschutz 1413 could shoot a lightly ragged whole at 50 yards, which would fit entirely within the X-ring. I use to shoot 40-40X at 50 yards often. My point is that even small-bore targets are very relaxed.

So under ideal conditions, the X-ring would be larger than a good group shot from a quality rifle. In moderate wind, say 10mph, a good shooter should be able to clean 25 yards. The 50 yard bulls and scoring rings would obviously be bigger, but would be more of a challenge with that same 10mph wind.

Some experimentation is necessary to determine reasonable size rings for 25 yards and 50 yards. On a good day, with little wind, shooters should be able to set records, but not easily shoot all X’s. On a windy day, the winner is simply the person who got the most points.

I think that this type of challenge would produce some new insights about shooting pellet rifles in wind. At present, I don’t think that too many of us have figured this out yet. I certainly haven’t.

Again, at present probably all air-gun manufacturers have guns that shoot .177 pellets at over 1000fps, so why not add some accuracy to this, along with competition level rifle stocks and sights.

In fact, maybe this should be .22 caliber only. That would make even more sense. I’ll bet that in addition to wind-doping with airguns being taken to another level, so would pellet designs. Maybe someone will figure out how to finally create an accurate airgun bullet.

Really, the possibilities are endless, as this would likely be more attractive than small-bore competition. It would certainly be more accessible/affordable.

Victor

Pete

Electronic triggers are at least 20 years old. They do exist, but are not any better than the best mechanical triggers. They are found mostly in target guns.

B.B.

Just thinking a bit more…
I know how squirrely pellets get in the wind. Maybe better to shoot indoors.
Know where to get a Govt surplus airplane hangar ? But they do get drafty in places because of the heating systems. That would handicap some shooters standing in the wrong place.

I still like the idea of stretching it out some.

I have no idea how bad wadcutters get at FT velocities at distance, with or without air movement. I do know that it takes very little to drive them nuts. Probably have to use domed.

twotalon

I’m thinking outdoor, but indoor could work, if an indoor range is available that goes out to 50 yards.

Cost can be an issue, but it doesn’t have to be. The obvious power-plant is PCP, but seeing the accuracy of the newer Walther LGV’s, I can see a variation using break-barrel. There is a competition version of the LGV with an adjustable cheek-piece. I’d still want a stock that could accommodate an Anschutz standard rail.

The targets would need to be relaxed a bit to accommodate for moderate wind such the best shooters could possible to shoot a perfect score, but barely. Of course, we’d also want an X-ring, as with small-bore rifle.

We sometimes forget that small-bore rifles would be all over the place at 100 yards, if not for some serious skill on the part of the shooter. And like pellet rifles, .22 firearms are very picky about their ammo.

In small-bore competition, each target has a “sighter bull” that the shooter can go to at anytime during a match. This is how we dope the wind.

For NRA matches, the shooter gets 1.5 minutes per shot. For ISSF matches, the shooter gets 2 minutes per shot.

Compared to small-bore, this would be much cheaper, just because of the ammo. A case of Eley Tenex (red box) cost close to $2000.00. An active shooter can use that up within a year, so we’re talking about $2000.00 per year to compete. With even the best air-gun pellets, we’re talking a small fraction of that costs.

We just need guns (possibly existing ones) outfitted for use with a sling, and everything else like small-bore. That extra power that we’re getting with new guns could be put to good use in this way. I think it would be even more interesting that 10 meter shooting. I also think that this would grab the attention of a lot of fire-arm competitive marksman. Serious competition at 50 yards would be a real surprise to lots of guys at the range, especially the ones who compete with target rifles.

Victor

OK, I’m a newbie so forgive my ignorance but is this possible? You guys have my brain spinning!
Regards, Jim H.

Electronic triggers? Like the one on the Rogue?

B.B.

The IZH 46M is a remarkable pistol, but not the great technology I was referring to. It was introduced into this country at $400 and the price dropped off to under $200, where it remained for many years. The price is back up because of the weak dollar, but it is still a cheap 10 meter target pistol.

B,B,

Sorry but that won’t work. The baffles need to be pressed against something in the front and the bloop tube is hollow.

B.B.

I like that idea. But it’s gonna cost.

Would that be indoor or outdoor competition ?

twotalon

One thing that I’m still waiting for are more powerful target air-rifles that are very similar to 10-meter air-rifles (e.g., FWB, Anschutz, Walther, etc.), except for a more powerful power plant. Like the better 10-meter guns, these more powerful guns will use aperture target sights, have an anschutz rail, and adjustable everything. I can see ISSF-like matches for prone at say, 25 meters, and NRA-like matches for prone at 3 distances; 25 yards, 25 meters, and 50 yards (think NRA small-bore prone shot at 50 yards, 50 meters, and 100 yards). I also see the same for three or four position.

The power is no longer an issue, and neither is the accuracy. We just don’t have “magnum” air-rifles outfitted like precision class air-rifles. I really could dig shooting prone, with a sling, aperture sights, for score, at 25 and 50 yards. I’m sure that there are field target rifles similar to this, except that they require a scope, as opposed to iron sights. In fact, such competition would have an iron-sights component and an any-sights (i.e., scope) component.

I like dreaming…

Victor

I have to agree with you on this. A couple years ago i had intended to purchase an IZH46M. In fact, Placed an order, but it was out of stock, so I cancelled my order and bought something else. I waited and waited, and when it was finally in stock, the price had gone up and has gone up even more.

At $400.00 I’d by it, but not at close to $600.00. I’d rather look into something even better.

twotalon

Welcome!

kevin

In the old days the trend towards power of spring guns by manufacturers was hyped by importers in the USA (ARH & Beeman come to mind) and most consumers in those early days focused on fps. To the credit of importers like ARH & Beeman they also offered tuned guns that sacrificed power for “smoothness” but this was accomplished by a mask of tar/grease usually.

To be fair, ARH & Beeman also sung the praises of smooth shooting medium powered sporting airguns like the HW50 and R8. These endorsements mostly fell on deaf ears. We want power America said. Beeman said, we have a R1. Beeman said we have an R10.

This precedent of hyping power is proven by the attention and consumption in the early days of the four horseman framed the stage for manufacturers to feed the perceived insatiable desire for American’s to acquire the fastest (hopefully most powerful) airgun. Manufacturers still believe this and their ability to market (put huge fps numbers on a box and put huge numbers of their guns in big box stores) provides them with HOLLOW evidence that they’re right. I say HOLLOW because they may capture the immediate market but don’t get any return/repeat sales because their product is sold primarily because it has dominance of store presence, is hyped because of velocity and turns the consumer off when they realize that velocity doesn’t equate to accuracy and velocity numbers are created by shooting light weight pellets that don’t have anything to do with accuracy.

You just lost a potential repeat consumer and more importantly you just lost his 3 best friends as potential consumers. You know, you can only burn people so many times with the best marketing hype before everyone knows your hype is hype.

In the future…..I think there is a void for an airgun campaign that advertises “THIS IS THE MOST ACCURATE BREAK BARREL GUN TO ELIMINATE SMALL PESTS OUT TO 30 YARDS EVER MANUFACTURED”. In other words focus manufacturing to tighter tolerances and adequate energy rather than focus on an airgun that is designed for velocity first and price point second. Disregard velocity as a priority and instead focus on tight specs, right lubes and good barrels. I know, whole different business model but when the majority of your consumers realize they don’t need 1300 fps for their backyard target shooting or shooting of squirrels at 20 yards and like hitting their target with 12 fpe rather than missing at 1300 fps they’ll tell their friends. Word of mouth is a powerful marketing tool.

kevin

ps-I also think that if someone could provide a carbon fiber tank swap for pcp’s like we now have for propane tanks for our bar-b-que’s that they could make money. We, of course, would need an accurate $150 pcp first.

Great article, but at the risk of sounding like Mr. Knowitall, the Tesla is all electric, not a hybrid. So mpg does not apply. MPC (miles per charge) would be the consideration. Interestingly, they are built on a Lotus chassis. One of Mrs. Slinging Lead’s clients has one.

I purchased a bloop tube for my Crosman 2240 that was okay, however when I reduced the diameter of its exit hole by covering it with a washer whose hole was just tad larger than the diameter of a .22 caliber pellet that bloop tube took the noise reduction to a whole new level. Do think the kit to silence the Talon SS would work better than my AirHog shroud if I carefully enlarge the hole through the baffles that come with the .177 kit to function with my .22 Talon SS?

Would it be possible for you to shoot the AirForce Condor SS with your AirHog bloop tube replacing its end cap. If it works like I think it should, I’ll have to put the Condor SS in the number one spot on my to purchase list. It might also get Kevin back in the game.

Bruce

I won’t be going around kicking any babies, no matter how much it impresses the chicks. Thanks for the tip though.

Edith

Of course you knew it was right. A handsome devil like that AND a mastery of the artillery hold? How could you resist?

I should check into Vernor’s… I do feel that the stuff in Michigan (back in the late 70s) was much better than the version in California (early 80s)…

Unfortunately, since the diagnosis of diabetes, I’m forced into the “diet” versions — and don’t have a baseline for comparison. (the CA version on non-diet was much too syrupy — it was Pepsi vs Coca-cola).

J-F

Did you leave out the part where Tom handed you a breifcase full of money before asking you for a date on purpose?

kevin

They’re available:
http://www.pyramydair.com/a/Accessories/AirForce_Airguns_accs/247/new

Edith

Did a quick scan of comments and PyramydAir site and didn’t what I was looking for, so here goes…

When will the Tallon SS aftermarket baffles kit be available?
Estimated price?

Thanks,
Bill

Love your stories!

I guess Tom knew about that elephant technique, as he was very persistent in pursing me.

He followed me out of church one day (we’d been introduced by his sister a week or so earlier), and he matched my footsteps so closely that I was kind of taken aback. So, I stopped suddenly, swung around and looked him straight in the eye. He didn’t back off, and he asked me out on a date. The next day, I told everyone at work that I was getting married. They asked how long I’d been dating the lucky man, and I told them I was going out on my first date in a week. Sometimes, you just know when it’s right

Edith

Yes, there has to be a couple thousandths clearance between the baffles and tube or they are not going in.

The baffles can be tight against the tube, because the compressed air goes back through them. The elongated hole is just an open passage for air to move through in both directions.

Not just greater space with the 12mm barrel, which there is, but also the holes in the front barrel bushing can be larger when the barrel is smaller, so more air can move through into the rear space.

B.B.

One of the male cats doesn’t care and will lay right under the gun if we let him (Tom already showed a picture of that in a previous blog). The other male doesn’t like any shooting, but doesn’t complain very much. However, if Tom pulls out a military-style rifle (e.g., Garand) just to hold it while we watch TV, that cat slinks away. There’s just something about it that makes him uncomfortable.

The female cat complains constantly when Tom’s shooting (and even when he’s getting set up to shoot).

Edith

I would describe the baffles have a cylindrical end facing breechward and a coned skirt at its front. The frame tube has 1″ I.D. The barrel bushings are no doubt nearly 1″ O.D. The baffle O.D. needs to be less than 1″ else there is no path rearward for the air (scavenged thru the elongated hole in the conical skirt) to-and-thru the ported barrel bushing. Yes? What is the O.D. of the baffles? maybe ~7/8″?

IF a 12mm barrel is quieter than a 16mm, I would assume that is due to a larger volume (between barrel and frame tube) for scavenged air to expand into.

john

glad you clarified that. Now I wonder what that old girlfriend of mine is doing these days and did she ever lose any weight ?

Fred DPRoNJ

twotalon

You are going to blast a .25 pellet through baffles for a .177 ? Talk about damage !

twotalon

Fred PRofNJ and Slinging Lead, I never said that women could not genuinely ignore you. But hold on. Elephants can show us the way! There was a documentary about a female elephant who was in heat and trying to attract a male, so she gave off a special low frequency rumble that transmitted miles in all directions. Sound like any women you know? Sure enough a distant bull caught the signal. He was already in the mood and the special rumble sent him over the edge. He went in a state called “Mast” or something like that where elephants can get so crazy with lust that (in captivity) they must be tied to trees for their safety and that of everyone around them. Anyway, this wild bull began literally leaking with desire around the jaws and hurried off in the direction of the female.

But no sooner does he locate her over the miles when she suddenly becomes completely indifferent to him. Why? There turns out to be a reason. The female wants the strongest most survivable offspring, so she ignores the bull to see if he has the fortitude to persist. So, I guess this is the guy’s cue to man up and keep trying in the face of rejection. But guys are not without resource! The bull located a baby elephant in the herd of females and gave it a few rousing kicks (without doing serious damage) which stirred up the females a great deal and got him noticed. I forget how this particular romance ended.

Anyway, I admit that it’s not easy to tell when you’re being genuinely ignored or not and that’s a hard situation when persistence can either win you the prize or get you accused of harassment. But I guess you’ll find out the truth of things sooner or later.

Matt61

And so it begins!

I agree the Talon SS with baffles should be as quiet as a Marauder, but I will still have to hear it to know for sure.

As for that conversion, you give up a lot of power with that barrel reduction and there still needs to be a shoulder bolt in the gun for the rear baffle. See the photo yesterday, showing the parts.

B.B.

It stands to reason, then, that the new version Talon SS in .177 would be noticeably less loud than the Condor SS in .22, perhaps even as quiet as the Marauder in .177, no?

The interchangeable barrels and purchasable extra baffles has my mind working. Imagine a Condor SS in .25 with the 18 inch barrel changed out for a 12 inch .177 barrel. Directly in front of the muzzle are three .177 baffles and in front of those are three .25 baffles. Is that at least theoretically do-able?

Michael

So you can stand it ? O.K. Do the cats tolerate it as well ?

twotalon

I tried uncorking my TSS and shooting it. Let’s just say that shooting the muzzle blast through that open tube makes a uniqe sound.

twotalon

He’s shot a Quackenbush in the house and never got a beating. In fact, the only thing I require is that he say “Fire in the hole” so I’m forewarned a loud noise is coming. Surprisingly, I’m not that uptight about these things. I bet there isn’t a day that goes by that I don’t tell Tom what a lucky man he is

Edith

Uhn-uh! I know what lurks behind those baffles!

B.B.

Why don’t you uncork that baby and shoot it in the house ? Bet after one or two shots Edith will give you a beating you will not forget.

twotalon

“As far as the Spin-Loc tanks are concerned, they’re the new design. Pyramyd Air has opted to phase out the version with the old-syle quick-detach tank and stock only the versions with the Spin-Loc tank. The quick-detach tank that screws in is also available as an accessory in both the standard and High-Flo configurations.”

Edith

If the tube was reamed to one inch inside, then the baffles would fit.

B.B.

Today’s test looked to be a full power test of the Condor SS which means you are going to get some racket at full power. But bring the power down to a 0-3 and I bet it will be dead quiet like my Condor does. Of course I only have my modified condor as a model but I’m going to guess that My condor might out perform the Condor SS by a little bit. Mostly that would be because I didn’t sacrifice 6 inches of barrel. I simply shrouded the entire barrel. So I have what amounts to a Condor SS on steroids.

Still not quite right…
Condor with 18″ barrel compared to Condor SS (has 18″ barrel).

If B.B. lived next door, I could hand him my Talondor for comparison.

The Condor SS will be quieter, but I would have no idea by how much.

twotalon

J-F

J-F

Now you know what I know about the Condor SS. I will continue to discover things out as I test it more, so both of us will get spun up together.

Kevin was surprised by my pronouncement of the noise level today. While it wasn’t what he was hoping to hear, I am so glad he found out before buying a gun and learning the hard way.

I don’t think the final chapter has been written on the Condor SS yet. For example, I see a shorty bloop tube of about 4 inches length that could house three more baffles. Would that change the report? probably!

B.B.

I tried using a tape recorder to check what kind of sound difference I had between two rifles. This does not work well to check for a difference in loudness because the cheap recorder has automatic recording level…it self adjusts and makes everyting equal in volume. But what it does is it can show you a difference in what kind of sound you get.

That’s in case anyone wants to waste their time trying this.

twotalon

No, there are no decibel readings. It’s just a rough comparison. When I write up a new airgun, I look at the powerplant and if there’s any sort of silencing device. I ALWAYS look at it from the customer’s perspective and err on the side of marking a gun too loud. You can always be happily surprised that a gun isn’t as loud as we rate it. But a gun that’s rated too low will anger customers. Generally speaking, springers are rated at 3 and single-strokes at 2. I checked the database, and there are 40 guns rated as level 1 loudness. Most are airsoft guns. I think I’ll review all those guns and see if some are wrong. Sometimes, things get overlooked when creating a new product.

Edith

I can do that by cutting a piece out of a wide rubber band, then slitting it to go over the top hat.

B.B.

I think the .177 should be quieter . It does not need as much air to push the pellets, and the baffle holes are smaller keeping the air from escaping as fast. There is also a difference in sound quality between .22 and .177 . The .177 sounds sharper to me in any of my rifles. Probably because of higher pressure at the muzzle because of the smaller bore.

twotalon

I would think so. Plus a .177 is almost always the quieter gun if you keep the pellet below the sound barrier.

But that is just speculation on my part. I have not heard a .177 gun shoot.

B.B.

I did change the Condor SS to level 4 loudness but apparently only for the black guns. I’ve now changed the red & blue guns to level 4 loudness. The website will update some time this afternoon or evening.

Tom said to leave the Talon SS as loudness level 3 and said nothing about changing the Marauder loudness rating.

Edith

The micro does not really give you “consistent” shots. It runs a straight downhill curve. How far you are going to shoot will make a considerable difference in shot count as the velocity drops.
The micro is a lot quieter than a standard tank. You can’t tune the rifle to get self regulation out of it.

twotalon

I have shot some of my rifles outside at night in dead calm air and no traffic noise to see what kind of noise I really get .
In spite of what the shot sounds like to me, the sound reflecting back from the other houses gives me the real picture. Don’t try it in the wrong neighborhood though !

I have my TSS down to having the reflected sound being a dull sounding “thup” that does not scare starlings. Other rifles that sound dull will bounce back as a sharp crack. That scares the bejesus out of starlings, and gets the neighbors attetion too.

twotalon

That it would be! Remember, I will be testin g the standard Talon SS with the new baffle kit, as well.

B.B.

B.B.

I think that for me the ideal would be a Condor SS with non-spin-loc micrometer tank, fitted with a particular aftermarket gauge/filling nipple connector that lowers the cheek weld an inch.

At low power settings, that sounds to me like a virtually silent, accurate, lightweight spinner and paper punching dream. Bazillions of silent, consistent shots per fill!

Michael

I am glad to hear you say that. You understand what I’m saying i this report.

I know this will come as a shock to others who have been eagerly awaiting my test of this rifle, but I don’t want somebody thinking they are getting something when they aren’t.

The Condor SS is quiet for the power it develops, plus there are ways to make it quieter, but people have to know what to expect.

B.B.

That is the old trick we used before the adjustable power wheel was invented! We put fat o-rings under the top hat to tame the valves. It worked very well.

B.B.

The Talon SS 12-inch barrel has always been 12mm diameter. The Talon and Condor barrels have always been 16mm. That is a nominal diameter, subject to change when the scale is ground off before bluing.

B.B.

Yes, regular tanks can be threaded into the Spin-Loc tank bushing, but not the reverse. No, the older frames cannot receive the Spin-Loc bushing.

B.B.

You have a good point.

I remember the first time I shot my Talondor outside over a wide open flat and empty field. I thought something was wrong because it sounded like a 397 with just a couple pumps shot indoors. There was nothing for the sound to bounce back from.
In the basement or next to a building it sure is different. Ringing ears !!!!!

twotalon

The best thing you can do with these rifles is to decide what kind of configuration you want, tune it up for the best curve you can get with it’s best pellet, then leave it there. Use the “adjustability” to get it there, then forget it.

twotalon

What about the safety?

As far as the Marauder goes, it should be mentioned that the already whisper quiet Marauder can be made even quieter with a couple of mods. The easiest is to install a small piece of tubing into the air reservoir. This will stop the resonance or vibration in this chamber. The only thing that will be heard is the hammer hitting the valve, and the pellet hitting the target.

Volvo, If you are reading, I would be very interested to hear your impressions of your Marauder as well as its specifications, and how you came to acquire it. Your revelation has thrown me for a loop.

Driving to AirForce and doing the extensive testing and research on why this production condor ss is so much louder than the prototypes is above and beyond any other airgun writers.

Your initial reports about the new condor ss being very quiet but still powerful were the reasons I’ve been following these reports with great interest.

In your first report it was compared to a diana 27. In your second report you said, It’s as quiet as Talon SS owners wish their guns were. In this report the production gun is louder than a sheridan blue streak on 8 pumps.

This is a dramatic difference. I’m out.

kevin

Thank you Matt! All this time I thought most women found me repugnant. Turns out they were expressing their overwhelming attraction to my overpowering sex appeal by ignoring me. This is a great boost to my ego. (rimshot)

Seriously though folks…

http://airgun-academy.pyramydair.com/blog/comments/feed/

Unanswered, in the earlier installment, is if regular tanks can be screwed into the Spin-Lock “bushing” (if the threaded portion hasn’t changed, and the overall length is the same, I’d think they would). And then the $64,000 question: could existing frames be retro-fitted to the Spin-Lock (a job that probably would entail milling out the existing threads of the frame to accept the “bushing”, drilling and tapping to place the set screw).

Although I don’t know the exact answer to the optimum setting yet, I do have a lot of data that suggests where the optimum may be.

After you read tomorrow’s post, let’s talk about it?

B.B.

Normally what you say is true, but the tune on the gun has a lot to do with it, as well. I have seen well-tuned guns that were relatively light and still shot easier than rifles of similar power that weren’t as smooth.

So weight is a factor, but so is the smoothness of the powerplant.

The RWS Diana 34 used to be a real beast, in that it was a wild buzzing rifle out of the box. Thesze days it is pretty smooth.

B.B.